|
Go
|
New
|
Find
|
Tools
|
Reply
|
|
|
Member |
** note moved from another thread **
Celibacy One of the things that has troubled me over the years is how many in the Christian community are turning toward a policy of requiring all homosexuals in their midst to be “non practicing”. That is to say of course that they must live celibate lives. I lived under this edict myself for many years. Thinking it was the only way to be true to myself (I knew I was gay) and true to God (as I understood His will at that point in time). However I found such an edict very difficult to live under and caused much consternation between the Lord and I. Worse yet such an edict just didn’t seem to like something God would do. Nor could I find anything in the Bible to substantiate it. Was all of this loneliness for nothing? I am currently working on a book titled “Calling the Rainbow Nation Home”. It’s something the Lord has laid on my heart for well over ten years. I am NOT a writer by either trade, training or natural talent (heck I can’t even spell and my misuse of the English language is almost legendary!). But you know how it is when God lays something on your heart and it simply won’t go away! Anyway…. The book is about “done”. Done in the sense that it now needs to be professionally edited (i.e. it’s probably only ½ done!) and no I don’t have a clue about publishers and the like. My job is to write it then I’ll tackle the next step. Anyway (!!!), I said all of that to say this… Chapter six of the book covers the issue of celibacy. Anita has done an excellent job of covering several of the clobber passages but I didn’t see anything on celibacy itself. Something that I feel is quite timely and an important subject within our community right now. So I’ve snipped and cut out portions of the chapter on celibacy and present them below. Be forewarned… this has NOT been edited and large chunks of the original chapter have been removed to make it easier to post and faster to read. Thus it may read rough and disjointed in places. Apologies aside. I hope the following helps someone out there. Elaine - - - - - - - - - Not a Choice One thing was clear. I was born gay. It wasn’t some whimsical “choice” I woke up and made one day. For most of us it was a long, arduous, journey into self-acceptance. Most gay people I know remember feeling “different” from their peers and not “fitting in” with any particular group. When puberty came, our daydreams turned toward our friends, not toward the opposite sex. These “abnormal” feelings could not be spoken of openly for fear of being ridiculed, ostracized, or even physically harmed. Most had the rude shock that their dream of finding that perfect mate, the family they were expecting, and their future plans were now going to have to be drastically altered. Then there were the constant reminders from society that we were expected to conform to an image that never fit. No matter how hard we tried. I didn’t want to be gay! I dreaded the thought of being an outcast, despised by some and feeling like I had to hide my personnel life from most. I lived for years in a no man’s land. Caught between the realization that I was a lesbian and the fear that acting upon my feelings was a heinous sin. A sin that many said would forever separate me from the love of God. Who would choose such a life? I certainly did not. Slowly the world around us is coming to these same conclusions. It wasn’t that many years ago that homosexuality was labeled as a treatable psychiatric condition. Now homosexuality is considered as normal as heterosexuality. The rest of the scientific community is beginning to follow suit and early research seem to be substantiating the psychiatric communities stance on this issue. The religious community is a harder nut to crack. Even here progress has been made in that several of the large denominations (e.g. Catholic) and influential leaders (e.g. Billy Graham) have taken the stance that ones sexual orientation is not a choice we have made, it’s just who we are. Therefore to punish someone for something that is basically out-of-their control would be wrong. Many of these same groups and organizations are beginning to accept homosexuals as viable members of their congregations. While all of this is promising, there is a limit to their acceptance. A “catch twenty two” if you will to the welcome extended to the homosexuals in their midst. Love the Sinner but Hate the “Sin” The “catch twenty two” is this. While many in the religious community are starting to accept that homosexuals are born with this orientation. They have not yet accepted the “act” of homosexuality. The party line being that a gay person must be “non practicing” to be acceptable (i.e. to be considered not living in a “sinful” state and therefore allowed to be a member of their church). It is the classic “love the sinner but hate the sin” story with the “act” of homosexuality still seen as the sin. This doctrine leaves gay people caught in the middle between partial acceptance and partial rejection. To be accepted, we cannot “practice” our sexuality. So in essence, we are required to be celibate our entire lives. I can relate to this because I remained celibate until my mid twenties thinking it was the only course of truthful action I could take. By this, I mean true to myself (I knew I was gay), and true to God, as I understood His will to be at that time. I followed a course of celibacy out of duty and my love for God, but I certainly didn’t enjoy the situation – not at all! I didn’t like being alone, nor did I like repressing all of my desires. In fact my feelings were beginning to drive me up a wall! Adding to my unease was this whole idea of forced celibacy just didn’t seem like something God would command us to do. The part that really sounded farfetched was the idea that somehow I was ok if I was gay, but only if I never acted upon my feelings. This didn’t make sense at all. Nor could I find any basis for such a belief in Scripture. Nowhere has God ever required an entire group of people to remain celibate. It also didn’t line up with Jesus’ teaching that it is what was in a person’s heart that makes them a sinner (Matthew 15:18-20). If homosexuality was a sin then by this standard I was sinning daily! This whole mess of a doctrine just wasn’t adding up. Unfortunately without a Scriptural framework or foundation proving what my gut was telling me I was stuck with this idea that celibacy was God’s preferred plan until I could prove otherwise. “Practicing” Homosexuality Sometimes we as Christians can get so caught up in our doctrine that our doctrine just becomes flat out ridiculous. A gay, non-Christian, friend of mine said it best when I told her that the Catholic Church would accept me as a gay person however I would be kicked out if I “practiced” homosexuality. She thought the idea sounded pretty comical and retorted that she “never had to practice anything” because she was born this way. Her point, although a bit crude, is an important one. Does “practicing” something make someone gay or straight? Or is our sexual orientation something deeper than our last relationship? As for me, I realized in my early teens I was very attracted to women. I didn’t have a word for it and was too afraid to express my feelings until my early twenties. When I finally came to grips with the fact that I was gay, did that suddenly transform me into a homosexual? Did finding the term “homosexual” suddenly make me one? Had I suddenly turned gay after I finally had the courage to act on my feelings? Rubbish! I HADN’T CHANGED. I had simply come to terms with who I was, and how God had created me. If we believe that the act itself defines one as either homosexual or heterosexual, how do we define people who know what gender they are attracted to and have yet to experience their first sexual relationship? What do we do with someone who is in between relationships? Using this logic, my sister would have been considered a heterosexual while she was married but after the divorce her sexual orientation is now in doubt? What if I had married a man? Would that have made me a heterosexual? No, I would have simply been a very frustrated homosexual living in a dysfunctional relationship. To me it seemed clear that “practicing” or not “practicing” has little to do with my sexual orientation because the sexual act itself does not define who I am. Yet that is what many in the church believe. They accept the homosexual, but condemn the act. It is an incongruous doctrine caught in the middle of a never-never land situated somewhere between our social morays and God’s will. God’s ways are never so surreal or gray. They are clear, sound and always based on the royal commandment of agape love. Being a Christian is all about relationships. Our relationship with God and our relationship with each other. Nowhere in Scripture do I see God banning relationships and commanding celibacy for an entire group of people or segment of the population. Is God an Unjust God? The second problem with this doctrine is that it makes God out to be an unjust God. If we accept, as many denominations have, that God has indeed made us this way. Then to make what comes natural for me a sin means that, by default, God has created us in such a way that we are damned to a state of perpetual temptation. Would God do this? Is God an unjust God? No for it is not consistent with His nature (2 Thessalonians 1:6). James 1:13-14 (NIV) “When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone” God has gone to great lengths to teach us how to stay out of temptation (Matthew 26:41). A loving parent does not willingly cast their children into harms way. Can you imagine telling one of your children that they will have to be alone and miserable the rest of their life because “God wanted it that way”, regardless if they wanted to be or not! Then having to explain to them if they ever expressed their love toward another person, God (more like society) would label them as a deprived sinner and condemn them to hell! Does this sound like God, or a man made doctrine that has gone afoul? Little wonder so many gay people have turned their back on society, organized religion and God! 1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NIV) “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.” Celibacy, a Gift not all have been Given That brings us to the most important point. What does the Bible actually say about celibacy? Celibacy is discussed in a couple of Bible passages. The most prominent is Paul’s discussion of the topic found in First Corinthians, chapter seven. He states in these passages that it is “good for a man not to marry” (1 Corinthians 7:1), because “one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided.” (1 Corinthians 7:33-34 NAS). While “one who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, (and) how he may please the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 7:32 NAS). Paul certainly endorsed celibacy, especially for those who lived during his perilous times. However, Paul clearly states that celibacy is his recommendation, NOT a command (1 Corinthians 7:6). More importantly, he says that celibacy is a gift not all are given (1 Corinthians 7:7). He goes on to explain that if a person does not feel comfortable being celibate and the temptation is too great (i.e. they don’t have the gift of celibacy), that person should marry (1 Corinthians 7:2). Even then a married people should “not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time”, then they should “come together again so that Satan will not tempt you” (1 Corinthians 7:5). Bringing these thoughts together we can see that Paul is recommending celibacy as a way of life so that a person can devote more of their time and attention to God. However, Paul is not commanding everyone in the ministry to embrace such a lifestyle. Furthermore, he realizes that few are given this gift and that forcing celibacy upon someone who has not been given this gift is an open invitation to much misery and temptation. Therefore, only people who have been given the gift of celibacy should do so, for only they would be at peace with it. 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 (NIV) “Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” Celibacy and the Ministry Another important note is that Paul’s admonishments regarding celibacy are primarily targeted towards those who “serve the Lord.” We now refer to such people as those “in the ministry”. The Catholic Church takes Paul’s recommendation one-step further, and mandates that all those in the ministry (priests and nuns) must take vows of celibacy. Many other denominations believe that this is a foolhardy edict because it demands celibacy when not all may be given the gift for it. Paul himself supports this second viewpoint. Clearly stating in His letters that celibacy is a gift not all were given and that that celibacy was only a recommendation and not a commandment. For those who were not given such a gift, including those in the ministry, Paul recommended marriage. In First Timothy Paul states that a church leader (in today’s terms we would say an overseer, deacon or church elder although those in the five fold ministry would also fall under these guidelines) should be “above reproach, the husband of but one wife.” (1 Timothy 3:2). Notice Paul didn’t say above reproach and single! In another scripture Paul, speaking about the other apostles, states that several of them took their “believing wife along with (them).” (1 Corinthians 9:5-6). Nowhere do we hear Paul or others condemning these apostles because they are married. These married men included James, the brother of Jesus, who is widely believed to be overseeing pastor for the mother church in Jerusalem. These passages make it clear that Paul and the other Church leaders accepted and even approved of marriage within their ranks. So what of us? Is it possible that all homosexuals have been given such a gift? Are we all called into such a ministry? Doubtful, first the entire gay population isn’t even Christian. Secondly, nowhere else in history do we see God commanding an entire nation (“nation” defined as a group of like minded people joined together by some bond that may be physical, political, social or spiritual in nature) of people to be set aside for ministry. Even the Levites, one of the twelve tribes of Israel, who were set aside for the priesthood, did not represent the entire Jewish population nor were they required to be celibate! If God truly has set aside the entire homosexual community for this honor then we are witnessing an historic event never before witnessed sense the dawn of creation. Such a deviation from historical patterns is highly unlikely, or believable, for we serve a God that is the “same yesterday, and to day, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8). While it is true in one sense that all Christians are called upon to be ‘in the ministry’ as worthy ambassadors of Christ and Christianity. Paul makes it clear that this is not the type of ministry he is talking about for if it were then all Christians should seriously consider celibacy! What Paul does say is that some are called into a life dedicated to a full-time ministry (1Corinthians 12:28-31, Ephesians 4:11-13) while others serve the Lord through their families and the community. We all serve, just in different capacities. Do I have the Gift of Celibacy? When I could no longer run from the fact that I was a lesbian the only other viable alternative appeared to be celibacy. I was faithful to this principle until my mid-twenties, but I was miserable. I was serving God to the best of my ability, but I didn’t like being alone. The very thought of never having a loving, sexually fulfilling, life-sharing relationship with anyone tore at me. I began to have misgivings about serving such a cruel God. The situation only got worse when my sexual feelings became stronger with denial, rather than weaker. It was driving me half crazy, just as Paul had predicted it would (1 Corinthians 7:1-9). This was not consistent with my past experiences with the Lord in which God had blessed my life when I had done His will to the best of my ability. Now instead of being blessed, I was miserable. How had I missed it? Had I misinterpreted Scripture or was the Churches doctrine missing it? I could now see that celibacy was a gift given by God to some, not all, people. But how could I know if I had this gift? Scriptures didn’t seem to offer up any clues. On one hand the church was telling me that I HAD to have this gift. Yet, my own heart was telling me I was miserable. There was no further help from the Bible, so I started talking about this issue with many of my friends – gay, straight, Christian and non-Christian alike. One day while we were at work, the discussion turned to relationships and the different problems we encountered. We were a pretty close-knit group, and there were few things we wouldn’t discuss with each other. Someone asked why I hadn’t started dating again after my last disaster of a boyfriend. I replied by bringing up the issue of celibacy and the Church’s doctrine regarding sex outside of marriage (I was vague because I hadn’t yet had the guts to tell them I was gay). My problem, I explained, was that I didn’t know if I had this “gift of celibacy” or not, but that I’d been practicing it per the Church’s doctrine. They found this to be an interesting and novel problem (none of them were Christian). These friends thoughtfully, logically, worked the idea through. Scott, one of my co-workers, after much deliberation shyly smiled and asked; “Well, Elaine, are you happy?” My answer was a quick “no!” “Well then” he replied, quite pleased with having solved my dilemma, “I guess you don’t have the gift!” With that, he smiled and wandered out of the room. Scott’s statement shot straight to my heart. How could I have been so dense! I laughed at myself; at all the absurdity, heartache and misery I’d put myself through! It was so blindingly obvious once I heard the words, utterly clear and honest. “Are you happy?” “NO!” “Guess you don’t have the gift.” Scott was one hundred percent right. My own misery testified daily that I surely didn’t have this gift. God had never destined me to live alone. If He had, I would be at complete peace about it. If I, as a gay person, didn’t have this gift then the church’s doctrine must be wrong. Worse yet it was a doctrine that attempted to condemn an entire group of people to a life of constant temptation and misery. One that would very likely destroy their very relationship with God. Conclusion Paul’s writings concerning celibacy found in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 tell us several important facts concerning such a lifestyle. 1. Celibacy is a recommendation not an edict. 2. Celibacy was recommended for those wishing to “serve the Lord” in such a capacity that they would have little time or energy to devote to a spouse and children. This recommendation took on a special importance during the perilous times in which Paul lived. 3. Celibacy is a gift from God that not all have been given. Forcing celibacy upon someone who does not have this gift is an open invitation to much misery and temptation and should never be done. Colossians 2:20-23 (NIV) “Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” p.s. Some additional thoughts on this matter. Someone has pointed out that God does require ALL people to be celibate before they are married and this is certainly true. However abstaining from sex before marriage is quite different than abstaining from sex for ones entire LIFE. Especially if one hasn't been given the gift of celibacy. Paul is quite clear in this. If one does not have the gift of celibacy he doesn't recommend they go off and have a series of affairs to remedy the situation! He DOES recommend they find someone they can be "equally yoked" with and get married. Now as a gay person we are not allowed to 'marry' by the laws of the land. But we most certainly can - before God - enter into covenantal vows with another. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." [This message was edited by Elaine on October 02, 2003 at 11:14 AM.] |
||
|
|
Member |
FYI - I've posted an article related to this subject in the gaychurch.org web site and the "Gay and Christian? YES!" section. Article is titled "Celibacy". I hope this helps.
1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
|||
|
Member |
Thanks, Elaine. As you know, we agree on about everything else we've discussed. This is the one area where I'm still mired down. The more discussion & info, the better!
Agape, DewDoc God is too good to be unkind and He is too wise to be mistaken. And when we cannot trace His hand, we must trust His heart.  |
|||
|
Member |
How far is too far?
I'm going to jump in here and ask a question. This is probably one where there is some need for discretion on choice of words and on being graphic. so I encourage anyone who answers to remember that underage people may be reading the boards and that voyeurs may also check it out. The build-up: I think I'll ask backwards. My 16 year old is straight and has that first real boyfriend in her life. I am not upset when they hold hands, kiss goodnight, walk with arms around each other, sit close on the couch together, exchange shoulder rubs or back rubs, dance close and the like. Her friends do likewise. We've regularly discussed sex and where she will set her "limits." She has a clear understanding of what I view as too far for her age and maturity. She can also tell you what behaviors she will not engage in if she is going to remain a "virgin" until later in life. In dealing with her young male friend she has some pretty practical answers relative to where hands can and cannot go and what should or should not happen with clothing. She also has some definite biological and physiological responses in mind for both herself and him that she will not solicit. The real question: How far is too far for a dating lesbian couple who intend not to cross reasonable chaste boundaries but who are still physical with each other and expressive with their emotions. I have my ideas, but I'm wondering where do you ladies feel they should set their stop point in order to honor the idea of "waiting until marriage" for sex? Please be a tad careful in choosing your language and in being graphic. Peace, Journey We love because God first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God, " yet hates his brother (sister), he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother (sister) whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:19-20 |
|||
|
Member |
How would it be any different than for a heterosexual couple?
I'm for waiting until a verbal commitment before God, which means forever. You can get civil union in VT - I think that, coupled with vows then allow for sex. Sexual intimacy is not to be a light-hearted affair. There is a level of trust required that can only come after commitment - total commitment. Whether others honor this or not is not the issue. Whether you and your partner and God honor it is the issue. I think God sets the standard - not us. I have been disturbed at how seemingly dismissive lesbians, christian lesbians, are with sex. I don't believe lesbians are called to any different standards than are heterosexuals, before God. I hope that civil unions will be recognized throughout the US. I don't favor homosexual marriage. But I do believe that commitment is a big deal, should be honored with legal ramifications and that among those who are Christian, an additional spiritual commitment should be equally important. |
|||
|
|
Member |
Journey,
I would agree with Tess that the standards should be no different for gays than for heterosexuals. But what stood out for me in your post was what you said about your daughter. I wish my daughters would have accepted waiting longer before having sex. They know my standards and we have discussed it. But both have made the decision that after the relationship has lasted for a few months it's OK to have sex, one at the age of 15, the other at 16. I'm not at all happy with that because they simply were too immature for a sex relationship at such an early age. But they have decided they don't believe what I would believe on the issue and there is no way I could prevent them. I wouldn't say they would have had to wait until marriage but until they would have been a few years older and in a relationship that would have at least some chance of being a lifelong one. I'm sad about this. How have others dealt with this kind of situations? |
|||
|
|
Member |
Journey wrote,
quote: and Tess said, quote: I have thought about this a lot. I made a commitment as a teenager (long before I really knew I was gay) to wait until marriage before having sex. When I came out, to me, that commitment did not change--maybe I'll never be able to get married in the eyes of the law, but I will wait until having a holy union ceremony in a church. As far as exactly where, physically, to draw the line, I have to admit, I don't have that figured out yet... but I probably should think about it before getting into a relationship. Tess, I've thought the same thing... I think I am beginning to understand why, though. I grew up in churches where we were taught as teenagers exactly where to draw the line in our physical dating relationships--with the opposite sex, of course. We were taught to wait until marriage, and we were given many reasons for this. We were given opportunities to ask questions. We talked to real-life people who told how hard it is to wait, but that it is worth it. Some of these discussions were silly, and some were really good... but no one ever mentioned the possibility that one might be attracted to the same sex instead, or what to do if that happned. I think when people come out as gay, the "rules" don't seem to apply anymore because the same people who taught us those rules don't acknowledge that we exist. Since there is no such thing as gay marriage, it's kind of hard to wait until you're married. Besides, a lot of people aren't able to come out even to themselves until they are forced to do so because they are in a relationship...which may or may not already be physical. You throw in lots of feelings of guilt and denial, as well as the distancing from God that happens for many people when they come out, and the idea of waiting for a long-term commitment becomes extremely complicated. Plus--most of us don't grow up with good role models of gay Christian relationships. All that said--I personally think it is important to wait, and I plan to do so. |
|||
|
Member |
I honestly am glad to hear Christian Lesbians taking a stand on sex before marriage or union. I have always felt this way. I have not FOLLOWED it, and the end result was alot of pain I would not have to have gone through, and more seriously, the sin against God that I committed. So, perhaps I AM too old fashioned, but it makes that special relationship SPECIAL. And to give that very precious part of ourselves should not be a 99 cents only gift that we spread around to everyone who wants it. It hurts the soul. I think if we stand together, and support each other, perhaps we can make it easier for the persons who have committed to wait, instead of telling them, "You'll do it anyway." because you simply don't HAVE to. And it is hard...but it is better to marry than to burn for another person. So, there is a way out...a commitment.
|
|||
|
| <Rose>
|
Hey Blyth,
Always good to see you Sister. Miss ya when you don't post. Hope everything is going well. You said what is true. Before we engage in sex we should be totally commited to our partner with our relationship founded on the ROCK which is Christ Jesus. We need to be prepared to Love our spouse unconditionally like the Lord Loves us, always forgiving and starting over, knowing that we are forgiven often ourselves. We need to plan on going the distance, but oh what a Wonderful Journey it can be!!! GRACE AND PEACE, ROSE  Rose S. Psalm 119 17 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word. 18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. 19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me. 20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times. 21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments. 22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies. 23 Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes. 24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors. |
||
|
|
Member |
Good to have you back Blyth!
1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
|||
|
Member |
I would like to add my thoughts on this one too. Like many of the posts above I agree that you should wait to be sexually intimate with someone until you know you are committed to the other person and, together, to God. My partner and I have been together for 2 years, and right from the start of our relationship, decided we would wait until we felt the time was right. A little later we decided to marry, and therefore would wait. We get married in June this year, in Toronto (thank you Canada). We have been living together for 6 months, and I can honestly say that it has not been hard to wait. If I was heterosexual, I would wait until I was married and committed to my partner; I don't see that being gay makes it any different.
The Bible talks about standards in relationships, not just straight relationships. Wanderer Be gentle to all and stern with yourself. Saint Teresa of Avila |
|||
|
| <Rose>
|
Congratulations Wanderer,
God Bless the Both of you!!! Amen to the Truth of your Words!!!  |
||
|
| <Bren>
|
Not long ago God spoke to me when I was questioning why I was gay through this verse in Mathew 19:12, it says: there are eunuchs which have been born thus from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs of men; and there are eunuchs who have made eunuchs of themselves for the sake of the kingdom of the heavens. He that is able to receive it , let him receive it . Now granted I'm not a guy however I could relate to this passage. I have been celibate for a year now.
A couple weeks ago I'd believed I had discovered that indeed God had wanted me to remain that way. Then I found myself getting angry, depressed and well, being even more bothed by remaining celibate. Quite frankly it's been driving me crazy. I thought if I have to fight this the rest of my life, these tendencys or desires it is going to be difficult to do so. Paul talks about burning with wantom.. if so than a man should have a wife and in the same respect a woman a husband. I question however why this passage is used to speak of gay relationships as it is talking about man and woman not woman and woman or man and man. Paul talks about a thorn in the flesh, maybe this is mine, I sure hope not. To be quite honest I still am unsure what God has to say about this. Scripture is not clear about it. I would like nothing more than to be in a relationship with a christian woman...Some people are content with being alone, I however am not, it has been very difficult. I've gained back my family in the past months but it seems I've lost myself in it all to their satifaction. Yes I am confussed once again, frustrated and so forth. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Elaine: ** note moved from another thread ** Celibacy One of the things that has troubled me over the years is how many in the Christian community are turning toward a policy of requiring all homosexuals in their midst to be “non practicing”. That is to say of course that they must live celibate lives. |
||
|
|
Member |
Bren I know only too well the struggles you are going through. It was a major issue for me as well. With so many denominations saying that they will accept the homosexual but not the 'act' of homosexuality we are encouraged on many fronts to remain celibate.
Like you I thought for awhile that celibacy was God's will for me. It was certainly better than attempting to be with a man. However, like you, I found that I was quite unhappy being by myself and wanted a life long wonderful partner in the most earnest way. Thankfully Paul and others HAVE given us direction in this matter. I would not be bothered by Paul using language pertaining to a man and a wife. He also uses language pertaining to covering women's hair, length of hair etc.. We must look into the SPIRIT of what he is saying. Remember when Paul wrote his letters almost 2,000 years ago he was writing to individuals and individual churches of his time. He had no idea someone would be picking up one of his letters 2,000 years later. He is addressing the people of his time and the culture of his time. When I write to you today I'm addressing you - and the culture in which we live. Look at this whole web site! It is a creature of the culture in which we live. 100 years from now when gays are as accepted into the Body of Christ as blacks are today. A good deal of the discussions we entertain on this board will have little meaning to someone in the future. Why? Because they're culture will have changed. The Israel nation of 2000 years ago WAS a very male dominated, procreation dominated society. People got together, yes for love, but even more importantly to raise families to carry on the family name and trade or business. Things change - but the intent of God's message does not change. If you would like to study out celibacy in detail and what the Bible has to say about it. Plus a good dose of practical/common sense look at the issue. I encourage you to get the book "Calling the Rainbow Nation Home." In there an entire chapter is set aside to discuss celibacy and God's will and intent for the gay community concerning this matter. I think you will find the chapter (and the entire book) helpful. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
|||
|
| <Bren>
|
In Ecc 1:10 it says:
Is there a thing of which it may be said, See, this is new? It has already been in days of old, which were before us. (MKJV) I don't believe desires for the same sex is something new in our culture. Scripture says that the word of God has every thing we need for life and Godliness as you may know. What is clear to me is that God does not want us unequally yoked to unbelievers gratifying the lusts of the flesh or putting another first as this is not the righteousness of God. Thank you for you response and views. I've also questioned why there dosen't seem to be many Christian Lesbians out there, true believers in Christ. The hardest thing for me has been my believing parents. My mother dosent believe that I could have been a Christian and believe it is ok to be a lesbain. However I know that not to be true as I have seen far too much (Gods involvement, grace, blessings, answered prayers and even awsome happenings) to believe otherwise. My pastor shared with me not long ago..."quite frankly the people in this Church don't know how to take you." He didn't mean that as a bad thing however I do tend to stand out as being differant than other woman in the Church. (as far as looks I believe.) God is awsome and I know as I seek his Kingdom and his way of doing and being right he will guide me into all understanding. One question however...does anyone know what "waiting a season" is in respect to God's timing? God Bless...thankyou for baring with me and my thoughts. |
||
|
|
Member |
Neither do I. If you read Boswell's wonderful work on this matter you know for sure that homosexuality is hardly something new to our culture. But I do believe the Israelites greatly surpressed it. Why? For many reasons but two key reasons had to do with: 1. Survival of their 'nation'. For the most part Israelites were born into their faith - not converted. Jewish conversions did occur but the survival of the nation depended upon a growing population. You see other Levitical rules based around this idea (or at least partially attributed to this). For example if a woman's husband died his brother (if memory serves me correctly) was to take the woman in and they were to conceive children together. Other rules included banning masturbation because they believed it was 'wasting' the seed and killing a potential child etc... 2. Homosexual practices were wide spread in the surrounding countries. Israel was to remain seperate and apart from her neighbors so they were forbidden to partake in any of the customs and practices of their neighbors. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
|||
|
|
Member |
Bren, so many of us on this board can relate to everything you are saying. When I came out to myself and a few others that I was gay. I was told over and over again (by straight folks) that I would spend the rest of my life drifting from one partner to the next and spending my older years alone. Like you I wondered if I was the only gay Christian out there as I knew of no others. But then again I didn't know any other gay people out there yet! As time went by though I found that there are thousands upon thousands of other folks 'just like me' out there. This board and the 3,500 member church directory are part of that testimony. And remember - this web site is only 2 years old. Folks barely know we are out here yet. How big will this board and web site be in 10 years? Unfortunately I have met many gay and lesbians who have fallen away from their faith. The reasons are pretty easy to understand. Their church attacked them and in many cases threw them out. Their Christian homes turned their backs on them and everyone they knew who claimed to be a Christian treated them so badly they wondered if the Christian faith was something real and God's message of love truly existed. I am confident though that when their time comes to meet the Lord face-to-face that He will understand their circumstances and welcome them back home with open arms. They will know in an instant that His love for them never wavered even though many of His people did. The more I've pondered 'us' (i.e. gay Christians) out there. The more I am convinced that it's a miracle that 'we' exist at all. Let's just say that those of 'us' that cling strongly and tightly to our faith and to our Lord through it all are pretty serious about our faith and our utter love and devotion to God. We are the faithful 'remnant'. I pray for the day when it won't be so hard for a young gay Christian to hang on to their faith. I WILL say though that when you make it out the other side - faith intact. You realize that such trials and tribulations have only made you a stronger Christian. One who has learned to listen to God 'unfiltered' and unbothered (as much) by outside opinions and voices. We've learned to read and study the Bible for ourselves and not be dependent upon others to interpret it for us (that doesn't mean we've put aside sound teaching and respect for the five-fold ministry gifts). Our faith is very, very REAL to us and has grown 10x stronger through the journey. I've come to see my 'coming out' struggle and the years and years it took me to come to complete peace about my sexual orientation. To really - in the end - to have been a blessing and not a curse. I AM BLESSED BY GOD TO BE GAY. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
|||
|
| Previous Topic | Next Topic | powered by eve community |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
|||
| Site | community | ||
| Servlet | eve2da013 | ||
| Version | 1.2.22 build 9062 | ||
| Module | Forums 4.0.3 | ||
| Stylesheet | "01 gaychurch.org default" | ||
| Wordlet Set | "Default Wordlet Set" | ||
|