AWWWW that was neat.....thank you so much.....your German is just fine......Vielen Dank!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Julez:
Due to the lack of time I just give the links here as I think there are some pretty interesting thoughts there about what is sin�for what it is worth since you all have moved on in this subject already:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin

Hmmm! We are near closing the fence around this wild animal called "sin"! Wonderful!

Please, check the link above, posted by dear Julez, and pay attention to the meaning of greek word hamartia, because this is the key word on this part of the thread! (I told you that a little researching doesn't kill anybody) And let me post something more: I can confirm (by my own researching) that what is stated in wikipedia is quite right. Of course you can (or must) do your own researching to confirm or refut it. This is a scientfic method as you know.

So, what do you think about hamartia?

Hamartia....."To miss the mark." As in "All have sinned and fallen short..." When we just don't make it to the goal of being righteous....

Very well! Very well indeed!

Hamartia: "to miss the mark".

But... "don't make it to the goal of being righteous???

Are you quite sure, my dear? Just I wonder it.

And to other ones: Don't you have any commentaries? Because hamartia is a very interesting word. And as you see, we are almost going to reach the end of this first part of the thread.

When one looks at a gemstone he/she will turn it over and over to catch the light in EACH of the facets.

"The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple" (Ps. 119:130).

"Where God's Word is, there is new light and growth because living Water streams forever over
the words God chose to use in the Holy Bible. And because this living Water is a “well of water springing up into everlasting life” everlastingly, continuously, even the “pleasant stones” of God’s written-down Holy Word “grow” in meaning to us as the Water continues to flow over them.”

Consider natural stones…..

“Break open an ordinary geode and inside you may find it is lined with lovely agate or chalcedony instead of crystals, but they have all “grown” in the same way; somewhere in the common rocks there were little openings filled with sand or clay, and into these openings seeped water – water that dissolved certain minerals and salts away through the ages and caused the formation of “pleasant stones.” [

Living Water in the presence of the Holy Spirit in God’s word has caused , as Eugenia Price states in her devotional, “pleasant stones” to grow. In examining closely God’s Word, doing a thorough search as in the case of “what is SIN” can better help us understand and grow together in the unity of the faith. [adapted from Share my Pleasant Stones 1957, Eugenia Price.]

Because we are doing an in depth look at "what is sin" I spent my study time today and came up with the following to share here..... expanding on "hamartia", I found the following "online course" detailing What is Sin? I will throw some more of Strongs into the mix....

Definitions of sin:

A. Secular (Webster’s) definitions: an offense against God; transgression of the law of God; a vitiated state of human nature in which self is estranged from God.

B. Scriptural definitions: Coming short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23; Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4); for whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). Sin may be either an act or a condition. Therefore sin is either an act or a condition that falls short of or is contrary to God's holy character and will.

C. The New Testament uses many words (check these examples by number in the Greek section of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) to describe kinds and degrees of sin:

1. hamartia (170) - general principle, state, or act, Matthew 9:6; Romans 4:8-10; 1 John 3:8,

Matthew 9:6
"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

Romans 4:8-10
"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [9] Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. [10] How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

1 John 3:8
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

2. hamartema (4) - sin in general, Romans 3:25,
3. asebeia (6) - lack of reverence, Romans 1:18,
4. adeikia (25) - iniquity of sin, Luke 13:27,
5. anomia (15) - lawlessness, 1 John 3:4,
6. paranomia (1) - transgression, 2 Peter 2:16,
7. parabasis (7) - sinning consciously, 1 Timothy 2:14,
8. parapyoma (24) - an offense, Galatians 1:6,
9. parakoe (3) - paying no heed, Matthew 18:17,
10. poneria (7) - wickedness, Matthew 22:18,
11. kakia (11) - depravity, Romans 1:21,
12. kakoethia (1) - evil in thought, Romans 1:24,
13. agoenia (1) - thoughtless, Hebrews 9:17,
14. hettema (2) - defeat, Romans 11:12; 1 Corinthians 6:7.

There are many online tools for studying out a word or topic. For years now I generally employ the use of Strongs Concordance, a dictionary that gives many Bible references that are not found in a regular Webster's, Nave's, Vines and a Hebrew Greek Study Bible. This was the first time I used the web to find a little more. I guess I am moving into the 21st century reluctantly although when I google and find most of the pages IN Greek, well, "it's ALL Greek to me" so the following in English was most helpful....

[URL=http://www.mdivs.edu/mastersschool/olcourses/rgw12paidacess377_200pts.html]

And YOU thought YOUR posts were LONG, Brakhus.

May God bless, Katie

Hello everyone, I believe I’m a little late now for a contribution with this post, I never imagined that a little research could take so much time, trying to understand Greek with the little English I know, let me tell you… what a mess!

But well, I research the meaning of hamartia and this is what I found:

Sin: αμαρτία, αμαρτάνω: hamartia, hamartano:

• a failure, fault
• error
• miss the mark
• miss road
• fail of one's purpose, go wrong
• failed of good
• mistake
• fail of having, be deprived of
• fail to do, neglect
• do wrong, err, sin
• do wrong in a matter
• wrong, mistaken



References:
www.kypros.org
www.perseus.tufts.edu
www.websters-online-dictionary.org

Well, well, well!
The end of this first part is comming.

Did you enjoy the researching? Is fascinating, isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Ka:
(..)"let me tell you... what a mess!"

I know, dear Ka it could be a mess, so you can understand now why there are so many opinions about religious and theological issues, and why there are so many churches that claim for their exclusive property of the Truth and disqualify other churches and people!

So, I will close the first part of this thread, which is about "sin, just plain and abstract", with a syinthesis of all your posts and a possible solution of the problem of "sin". Therefore, we'll be in the right position to discusse about homosexuality.

Comming soon: The end of "Episode I".
So, stay tunned!

I do admit it can be a little frustrating with the lack of knowledge and all, but it was very interesting, and very gratificating? (is that a word?) Hope you know what I mean...

The thing is, I learn a lot, and I look forward for Episode II and all the future research of course!

Well, let's finish this first part with what I promised.

Arguments:

1. Sin is an english word enough old (used before 1010 E.C.) and is used only in religious and theological context.

2. The word used by N.T. writers was "hamartia" as you researched quite well. And its meaning is "to miss the mark". Others greeks words that appear in N.T. (as those listed by our dear Katie42) describe some "wrong" behaviors, considered as sins, and they could be "sins" especifically, but we wanted for "sin" just plain and abstract. In these cases (those in Katie's list) you can find:

- four words beginning with "a-" something,
- four beginning with "para-",
- two beginning with "kako-", and
- two without prefix ( poneria, hettema

Those with "a-" are describing the lack of something (as "a-" is a negative prefix)
Those with "para-" are describing an uncommon (not generalized, different) or parallel situation of something. Let's compare "anomia" and "paranomia". The first one (a-without, nomoi-law) means lawlessness (just as Katie stated), and the second one (para-different, nomoi-law) means not "transgression" but according another law, or outside the common and generalized law) (Do you remember para-phusin?) As you can see, the concept of "sin", according these samples, stay confusing.

Those words with "kakos-" are describing something bad or ugly. (i.e. Kako-phonos means ugly sound). So, Kakia means "ugliness", and kako-ethia (ethia- thoughts - is the same root of english word "ethics"), means, bad or ugly thoughts or moral principles.

So, as you can see, the main issue in this part is HAMARTIA, as sin in general.

3. Sin, have been understood as a violation of some religious law. So it has meaning only in theological context as was said. Therefore, as you could see in the web sites cited in previous posts, sin became a matter of legality (a religious one), and was an elaboration from the Moses' Law. Without law there is no "sin" theologicaly understood. So, in O.T. we can find a large list of sins. But there are some important differences on how N.T. is dealing with this, mainly because our Lord's fulfillment of the Moses' Law.

4. Our jewish-christian tradition has a very important icon which is the "Lord of Hosts", a temperamental, full of rage God that punishes disobedience. So, by the concept of punishment was the concept of "sin" born in terms of legality. And this is comprehensible because it was absolutely necessary to distinguish who must have been stoned to death (a punishment very lovely to ancient, as fire was to medieval people). This specially difficult task (to judge) required some tipically described behaviors, in order to avoid stonning someone inocent to death. So we can understand that "sin" is related to some "code of penalties", and N.T. writers was immersed in that set of beliefs.
One of the Ten Commandments states: Thou shalt not kill. But God commanded Judges and Kings of Israel (and of Judah) to kill masively. Then, is "to kill" a sin or it is not?

5. As "sin" has sens only according some law, we must search for the "law" that is mandatory for us, according N.T. And here we find the only Commandment: To Love (first God, after everybody), so the first important

CONCLUSION:

TODAY WE CAN COMMIT JUST ONE SIN: TO ACT WITHOUT LOVE

Therefore, to steal, to lie, to murder, etc. are sins because are deeds against love. So, the Only Commandment has in itself the Whole Law and the Prophets, as Jesus said.

6. And what about "conscience"? Can pagans or those who don't know the Law, sin? And the response is yes. Not for the specific religious and revealed law they ignore, but for the only universal law they know very well: To love.

7. Then, how many sins there are? Only one, as was said. Issues like long hair in men, covered women in church, skirts too shorts, and the huge list of behaviors that have been declared as unacceptable or sins, don't have any sense. All of them, or none of them, could be a sin but in terms of the ONLY COMMANDMENT.

Finally, as we are not under Law but under GRACE, we must be more concerned about the positive aspect of christianity (LOVE) than in avoiding what could be (or could be not) a sin.

We must not lose precious time regarding our past or our present in an useless quest for sins. We must use this precious time in seeding our Lord wheat and harvesting His Fruits of Life.

We must edify in faith, not to be sorry about the poor quality of the soil upon what we construct for our Lord.

we don't have to regret what we did because our imperfection, but must work hardly and jouyfully for GRACE and LOVE. We are useful for our Lord by what we have to give, not by our lack of perfection.

The King is governing in Love, the executioner is gone.

Do you think a second part (about the inexistent sin of homosexuality) is still needed?

Blessings to you all.

Been thinking about the actual topic of this thread .... "words matter"

Influence

This I think as I go my way:
What can matter the words I say,
And what can matter the false or true
Of any deed I am moved to do?

This I think as I go along:
What can matter my right or wrong?
Whichever path I may choose to take,
What possible difference can it make?

This I think as I go to town:
What can matter my smile or frown?
Can any one's destiny altered be
For better or worse because of me?

And something whispers;
"Another may be sadly deceived
By the words you say.
And another, believing and trusting you,
May be led astray by the things you do."

"For much that never you'll see or know
Will mark your days as you come and go.
And in countless lives that you'll never learn
The best and the worst of you will return."


Thank you Edgar Guest [August 1881–August 1959]

Is your last post, dear Katie, some kind of response of my last question?

quote:

Origninally posted by me:
Do you think a second part (about the inexistent sin of homosexuality) is still needed?

Because, if it is, I humbly must recognize, I don't get it.

As you know, we were talking about what "sin" could be mean. And we were doing it in a serious manner. You used to post in that manner too, thoughtful and respectful manner.

So, can you be more specific? Just a plain YES or NOT?

Because if you answer "yes", then I'll be very glad to develop the second part, digging deeply in the words, trying to find what is important according to the Scriptures, explaining what is "bugging" and therefore, contributing in our growth in Love, Faith and Respect, thanks to our Beloved Lord.

Blessings.

Hi. Just catching up on this thread. Great word studies- thanks, Katie and Brakhus.

I wanted to add a bit to the biblical/historical idea of sin. I see that so far we've been focusing on NT uses and definitions. As you may already know, I like to keep the entire Bible in context. I see it as the story of God's relationship with humanity, and I believe that the Hebrew scriptures have something to contribute to this discussion.

To the ancient Hebrews, as far as I understand it, the laws and lists of prohibited behavior were guides to the community.

Sorry, I'm on call; just got a page to ER. Will finish this thought and post more later.

OK, I'm back. So, the ancient Israelites and sin...

The holiness codes, laws, prohibitions, etc. were designed to help the Israelites remain together as a community. Remember, they were surrounded by other religions, all worshiping multiple gods. If you can imagine a circle, with all the Israelites inside it, and God with them inside the circle...sin, translated in this case as transgression, meant any behavior that caused a person to be outside the circle. The laws created the boundaries, and gave them their identity as God's people, as different from the others. There were also very specific remedies for sin, or transgressions. When one stepped outside the bounds of the community, one needed a way to get back in. Originally, they used blood of sacrificed animals on the altar and on the people to cleanse the people of their sin. That way, the sin could be washed away, or wiped out. And remember the "scapegoat"? That's another remedy for sin: cast it into an animal, and send that animal into the desert- outside the community forever. The animal took the place of any human member of the community, so no one had to be cast out. For the Jews of today, Yom Kippur, or Atonement Day, still serves the purpose of making everyone right with God and each other; it brings the sinners back into community.

Fast forward to around the second or third century, A.D. The early Christians, many of whom still identified themselves as Jews, knew these stories by heart. If they were Gentiles (not raised Jewish), then they were taught the stories by the Jewish Christians. Jesus becomes the scapegoat, but then conquers the desert (death, hell), and comes back into relationship with us and God by rising from the dead. So there's been a kind of evolution of the understanding of sin, of relationship with God, and of what to do about sin. Jesus promises forgiveness through relationship with himself. He's made atonement (see Yom Kippur, above) for our sins, and all the sin committed before and after us by all of humanity.

My old friend, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther maintained that we die to sin in baptism (see Paul's letters). He also recommended that we make this death and reconciliation with God a daily act through our prayers.

Personally, I believe that baptism is only one way in which a person can become a child of God...I know there are some sensitive people out there, so please hear me when I say that I don't want to offend anyone. I do believe that God and the work of the Holy Spirit are much bigger than the boxes we try to put them in, though. And that another person's relationship with God is not my business- it's between God and the individual. In listening to people of many different faiths at my job, I've learned that there are more ways to come to God and to worship God than I will probably ever know in my lifetime. Some resonate with me, and some don't, but it's not my job to condemn or pass judgment. I've found that the people on whom I want to pass judgment are often the ones who can teach me the most.