Well, dear sisters and brothers, here we go, as I proposed. Let's discuss about Bible and homosexuality (again!) but this time let's focus as follow:

First, a little introductory paragraph: When I was 16 yo I did fall in love with a young brother of my church (he was 2 years older). Of course I'd kept hidden my feelings because my church didn't approve at all homosexuality. But some day, we in church listen a "revelation", a "new" understanding "from our Lord", when our Pastor declared with all solemnity: "Homosexuality is an awful sin, the worst a christian could commit against the Holy Spirit. So, who is engaged in such behaviors must be expelled from church, and WHO FEEL that way, just feeling, MUST BE EXPELLED as well." Many days I suffered with that "revealed" statement. I felt (and I still feel) attraction for people of my gender, and I didn't know what could I do to stop feeling like that. So, some day I encourage myself and resolve to talk with the elders of my church, explain my feelings, and my problem: I couldn't do anything to stop my feelings and I couldn't (and didn't want it) do anything at all, to stop my faith and my love for my Lord. Result: They read (again) the "clobber" passages, confirmed the condemnation, and they expelled me from the church. You hear well: I was expelled from our Christ's Body when I was just 16 yo. So, according to them, I don't have a church, I don't belong to Our Lord's Body, and... just I'm OUT. Pay attention on this: My faith, my love, my vocation of service, my (everythig else but my sexuality) don't matter. Just for my sexuality, I'm out. That happened 33 years ago. First, I believed that I coludn't make it. Without my brothers and sisters and, first of all, without my Lord's Love and comprehension. I thought my life was going to dry off slowly until my death called me, but I was not affraid about Hell as much as it supose to do. Well, 33 years after, my life is ok and I'm growing in faith and Love, because MY DEAREST AND SWEETEST LORD never abandoned me! So, I'll try to discuss with you all, how I finally did it... and all start with that I call "the trap of the words". (End of the "little" introductory paragraph)

In order to start the topic, let's resume the "acustomed" arguments: Homosexuality is a sin, because, Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19), the holiness code (Lev. 18 and 20), and Paul's letters (Rom. 1:21-31, 1 Cor. 6:9,10; and 1 Tim. 1:9,10), and so on. When we found this arguments and we don't know what is really happening, the effect is devastating. BUT: Let's consider why it must not be devastating. Many things can be posted to support that, but let's start with only two of them, and after that, we'll dig deeper. Let's Old Testament stay aside for a while as well, and let's focus in Paul's letters.

FIRST QUESTION WHAT CANNOT BE AVOID:

WHAT IS A "SIN"?

I mean, the english word "sin" must have some meaning as it has in spanish. What do you think a "sin" is? WITHOUT THINKING OF ANY SIN SPECIFICALLY, just plain and abstract.
Because, if homosexuality was some kind of sin, we must know exactly what a sin is, and so, we can be in a better position to stablish if homosexuality is or is not, such a sin.
I suggest you can research in web sites, looking for the greek (koiné) word for english "sin" and know what that koiné word means. You will find a couple of surprises!
This thread of the topic will take us through an important theological issue, but let's start it simply.

SECOND QUESTION:

We know that all Paul's letters are lost.
We know, also, that exist some copies, and some of them are as old as II and III centuries.
We know, also, that those original letters were written in koiné (greek), the usual language for that time and places.

Because all of the above, the words used by Paul had a certain meaning for the readers in that time and place, but, Paul didn't write them in english (or spanish, etc.) So, we find, then, the problem of translation. This must be not a problem, but we must to consider one important thing: If the Bible is the Word of God, then the Paul's letters must be Words of God. But the Words of God were in koiné, not in our modern languages, so, we must be very careful to consider the English (or Spanish) Words of God.

With and along the translation problem, lies the copying problem also, and because all of that, we find today very important discussions about the "true version of the Bible", "the textual criticism", and all those questions appeared since the "dead sea scrolls" and the "Nag Hammadi Library" were found. Many important issues were presented to scholar's analysis (like the 4th or 5th century addition in 1 John 5:7, for instance), the real autorship of the Gospels, the "Q gospel", the inclusion (or exclusion) of some books in the "Canonical Bible", and all the historic evolution of the first(s) church(s) and their believes.

For many christians, the "credo" of the Holy Spirit inspiration, was enough to consider the Bible as the God's Word. But when the ancient papiruses and manuscripts were discovered, they had been forced to believe that the Holy Spirit must took good care about copying as well. And when they discovered that the copies doesn't match as well as they supose to do, the problems were getting worse, because was logicaly necessary to accept that the Holy Spirit must took good care about translation as well. So, the complete problem was sketched: The translation from the Textus Receptus, its relationship with the Vulgata, and so on.

What do we have, today, of the God's Word? What does remain of It? And here is my second thread of this topic:

One thing is The Word Of God (that, what was spoken and heared and we can find among the words in many different ancient manuscripts, and in our actual Bible Versions); and another very different thing is (are) the words (of men) that our actual Bible versions (no matter which) we have. If we deposit our faith in just words, we can find, perhaps, they was false. (Remember the problem with 1 John 5:7!) But if we deposit our faith in the Word of God, we can find It is the Truth.

We humans, use words to communicate. So, we think, learn and understand by words (and by other mystical experiences, but let's put this point aside) So, words are more important than we primarily see. Did, really, Paul condemn homosexuality? What, really, did Paul say or write? Look at the problem: Is a matter of words.

Let's take an example:

What kind of people is "abusers of themselves with mankind" (KJV, 1 Cor. 6:9)? Paul didn't write "abusers of themselves with mankind", he wrote: "arsenokoitais". Is a matter of words. Can arsenokoitais be translated as "abusers..." etc.? what is the IDEA, the CONCEPT, the EXPERIENCIE, the REALITY of real lives in Corinth at the 1st century, behind aresenokoites? The word MUST represent something, what does it really represent?

Is a matter of words. Let me finish with an other little story: Recently, I went into a meeting of Baptist Church's brethren (only english spoken). An old (american) lady seated near me talked to me about many things, but suddenly she congratulated me because I've learned to speak english, so I can read the Word of God!!! Of course (she thought, I guess): The WORDS of GOD can be not in SPANISH!!!! As you see, is a matter of words.

I hope with this topic to start an edifying thread to confirm our love and faith. We must not, necessarily, be agree about everything, but let's discuss and help each other.

Blessings to you all.


"For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power" (1 Cor. 4:20)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Brakhus,

Well, dear sisters and brothers, as you can see, this topic was visited and viewed 26 times since was posted to today. It looks like some important issue for those people, I guess.

So, to put it easier, let's start with the first question: What is a sin? As I asked above, just plain and abstract.

Blessings, as always.

LOL--thanks for breaking it down, Brakhus! I actually had to leave for awhile & just got back to this thread. Two things for me:

First, on a personal note re: your story about when you were 16.......What bothers me when I hear stories like that is simply this: If a church DOES consider a gay sexual orientation a sin and somebody says to the church elders, "I'm having these feelings and don't know what to do," HOW DOES IT HELP HIM to be thrown out of the church? It's like a hospital telling a patient, "Gee, sorry, you're too sick to be here." If an alcoholic came to the church elders and said he was having thoughts of alcohol, they wouldn't throw him out the door. They would try to help him deal! I think there's a double standard there or at least an inconsistency that really bothers me a lot, regardless of how one falls on the issue of homosexuality and sin. We are ALL sinners and we ALL fall short of God's ideal. SO I'll get off my soapbox now, o.k.?

To answer your question about: What is a sin?

I think a sin is anything that comes between us and God. If I feel something is sinful but I do it anyway, it's a sin FOR ME, whether it's a sin for you or not. Does that make sense? Certain things are pretty "standard" like "Do not kill" & the 10 Commandments but the underlying themes are that the act comes between us and God and that it doesn't concern love for others. JMHO. (That's "Just My Humble Opinion.")

Wanted to put in my two cents, though I agree with Dew's explaination of sin.

Looked up sin in the dictionary online, and it says:
A "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God."
B "A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience."

Will check back and see what else is said tomorrow!
Glad to have you here Brakhus.

God Bless,
~Byrd

WOW!!! What a beginning!

First: thank you dear DewDoc for starting the discussion, you are so brave! I loved your JMHO! (I must learn a lot about those Zimboes)

Second: God bless you, dear moondragon for your post and my thanks too.

Both of you are pointing quite well on the heart of this thread: WORDS.

As I promised, I'm going to continue just asking and to allow the further development of this thread accordingly to your posts. So, the next provoking question:

Suppose (just suppose) that the meaning of "sin" was what the dictionary on line quoted by dear moondragon, says. If it is right, then everybody that doesn't know the will of God, cannot sin. So, they don't need any salvation. If they cannot sin, they are so perfect ones that they need not any cleansing, and our Lord came among us just for those of us who know the will of God and are capables to sin as a consequence. If so, then there is only one way to be perfect: IGNORANCE.

And one more thing: If "sin" is a deliberate disobedience, so not any disobedience is sin, but that what is preceeded by a deliberation. I mean: First must be a deliberation; as a consequence of that one can know what the will of God is, and no matter what, one do other will, not God's one. If one doesn't deliberate about that, then, there is no sin.

What do you think?

Am reading this while eating my 5 minute lunch & working on medical records (what a multi-tasker I am!) but I will think on it & be back when I can put together a more coherent post. Great questions, Brakhus!

O.k., I'm back.....

1.) I think the second and third chapters in Romans have a lot of answers for us on this. In Romans 2:12-15, it talks about how "even the heathens" are given a conscience by God. Even though they may not have His written laws, their consciences will convict them if they do something sinful. As we read on in the third chapter of Romans,we find that we're all basically screwed under the law because we ALL sin and fall short of God's ideal. This is why Christ was sent for us. In His kindness, He took the punishment that we all would otherwise be due. Does this mean we're "off the hook" and can do what we want then? Not at all! Because we love Christ, we do our best to follow God's will--not out of fear of persecution (already covered by Christ's blood) but out of LOVE for Him and RESPECT for what He's done for us.

2.) To answer the question about deliberate sin....is there any other kind? I mean, if I'm walking along with a pistol in my purse, trip and fall and it accidentally goes off and hurts someone but that obviously was not my intent, that might fall under the stupidity category or a flawed judgement category, but it wouldn't be the sin of willful act, would it? (Hope that doesn't confuse too many people!) Doesn't all sin involve choice on some level?

3.) There are obviously people who truly do not comprehend the difference between right and wrong--for example, kids with some types of severe brain damage, autism, etc. God knows who those people are! I love the song lyrics about "God is too good to be unkind and too wise to be mistaken. And when we can't trace His hand, we must trust His heart." There are so many situations in life that are very complicated and I'm so thankful that GOD is sifting through those because I know I couldn't figure them out!

4.) Brakhus, I just want you to know how much hope it gives me to know that being ignorant might make me perfect--LOL!

Quick post before bed...or back to bed. (I had a nightmare and had to get up for a bit.)

Question: Even though they are people in our world who don't even know of God's exsistence they still know when they have sinned, I think. How? We all have a gut feeling when we've done something wrong that goes against God.

When I was a kid, I knew NOTHING about God. My family was not religious but I knew of His exsistence just through the love of others and I knew he was unhappy when I sinned.

Hmmmm.....I must go to sleep and ponder now.

I believe there is something called conscience, which is one of fundamental elements of humanity. It explains why atheists and adherents of other religions can be perfectly moral people without knowing the first thing about Jesus.

quote:

Originally posted by moondragon:

Question: Even though they are people in our world who don't even know of God's exsistence they still know when they have sinned, I think. How? We all have a gut feeling when we've done something wrong that goes against God.

Wonderful, thoughtful posts. I am delighted to watch this thread developing!

Katie

Very well, my sisters and brother!

Let's continue, and let me be still provoking (that's my job in this thread!)

You know very well, then, that ignorance is not a virtue, and it is not the way to be perfect. Good! So, must be something more about sinning.

All of you (Dear Aaron, DewDoc and Moondragon) are pointing to two other issues so interesting: Conscience and the sense about what is right and what is wrong. Or, in only one issue: The conscience about good and evil. It can explain why "even the heathens" can be judged, as dear DewDoc posted.

But I still see a little problem with that. (As you see I'm provoking again!)

Is it a matter of God's will or a matter of ethics? Because the "good and evil" issue is an ethics' one.

Of course we can be agree that God's will is good, and going against it is wrong. In that context, let's see an example of God's will in the far past: The total destruction of Jericho, including children. (Joshua 6:21) Is it ethics? But it WAS the God's will. Another example: What the conscience can say about eating mussels? Is it wrong? But God's will was: "And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you." (Deut. 14:10 KJV)

Dear Aaron posted about conscience:

quote:

It explains why atheist and adherents of others religions can be perfectly moral people without knowing the first thing about Jesus.

Can we affirm that "sin" is "wrong" and "wrong" is "sin"?
Is everything that is wrong a sin? Or, Is every sin something wrong?

And one last version of the same provoking question:
Is "sin" something pertaining to the context of theology or of ethics?

I would like to answer this question with a quote from Jerry Bridges book "The Pursuit of Holiness"

-Years ago a freind gave me what he called his "Formula: How to Know Right from Wrong." The formula asks four questions based on three verses in I Corinthians:
-"Everything is permissible for me'-but not everything is beneficial" (I Cor 6:12) Question 1: Is is helpful-physically, spiritually, and mentally?

-"Everything is permissible for me'-but I will not be mastered by anything" (I Cor 6:12) Question 2: Does it bring me under its power?

-"Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall" (I Cor 8:13) Question 3Does it hurt others?

-"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" (I Cor 10:31) Question 4
Does it glorify God?

That has been my definition of sin for many years.

For about 2 hours, till about 2am in the morning here, I worked on a post to this thread and when I finally was about to hit the “send” button , I lost it all…I too am not a native speaker so to make a thoughtful post sometimes takes me forever. I then just got off and went to sleep. I was so frustrated….
I cannot restart this post because I don’t have the time….I am preparing for an almost 4 week trip to Australia, so I’ll be gone for quite a while but Brakhus, I wanted to let you know that I really love how you approach things and I appreciate it very much. It was something I had missed.
I usually start out on wikipedia, it usually gives you a general overview of the subject….Due to the lack of time I just give the links here as I think there are some pretty interesting thoughts there about what is sin…for what it is worth since you all have moved on in this subject already:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Julez:
For about 2 hours, till about 2am in the morning here, I worked on a post to this thread and when I finally was about to hit the “send” button , I lost it all…"

Boy can I identify with this statement. How frustrating. I was talking to Rose when she was reading threads and had been typing a VERY LONG post, she didn't want to lose it so I gave her a suggestion for making sure she could save it, and yes, you guessed it.... GONE! More times than you can count when the enemy comes in to block something he'd prefer we not share, "oops, technical error" and the post vanishes. What's that about?

Have a safe and wonderful trip!

Katie

I think the Main thing to be concerned with when trying to understand what sin is, is to search the Bible and see what the Lord Himself declares to be sin.

We can wonder, theorize, and suppose endlessly, but what does God Declare to be sin??? He will not keep us in darkness as to what sin is, but Declares it to us Boldly, so we might know the right way to walk and what to avoid.

The Bible teaches whatever is not of Faith is sin. Whenever we do something regardless of that uneasy feeling we get or doing something while in doubt, it tells us That IS sin.

When we have a complete Peace in our Hearts about something the Word doesn't specifically forbid, that is a clue or evidence we are probably OK! If we do something while being in doubt, just the doubting is a lack of Faith and should probably be avoided.

Another way to think about it is, would I do, say or perform what I want as The Lord is Always present in me?

We are the Temple of God and as such He Dwells inside us, His Presence wanting to Lead and Guide us. If the thing we are wanting to do does not bring us to walking in Holiness, would I feel confident doing it?

Does the thoughts we think, or the actions we take Honor God? As we are Seated in the Heavenlies with Christ already, would we sit on the Throne with Him with stolen goods in our pockets? Would we ever find ourselves sleeping around, knowing we are in the Presence of the Holy God of the universe? Would we ever lie to a brother or sister, or about them, knowing Jesus Dwells inside of us? Could we come before His Presence while continuing to engage in Adutery, or open fornication while many times deceiving ourselves, because we expect He will forgive us, or we are sure He wants us to be happy first, instead of doing right?

It is not so very hard to figure out what is sin! If we do not walk in Love, He is not The Lord of our Lives! He told us to walk in Love! Love does it's neighbor no harm! If whatever we do harms anyone else, that is not walking in Love, and we can be sure that is sin!


HIS LIGHT TO ILLUMINATE OUR HEARTS,
ROSE

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Rose>,

quote:

Originally posted by Rose:

We can wonder, theorize, and suppose endlessly, but what does God Declare to be sin??? He will not keep us in darkness as to what sin is, but Declares it to us Boldly, so we might know the right way to walkand what to avoid.

Oh, My dear Rose! Our Lord knows and I also, you are stating quite well as you posted!

You know, also that the job I have imposed upon me in this thread is to reach what is solid and firm, in order to built our faith upon the rock!

As Matthew said:
"Therefore, whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock. And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock." (7:24,25 - 21st Century KJV)

Let's know what others brethren have to share with us, for a while more, and we will know about salvation and life better because our dear Lord can speak through our beloved sisters and brothers!

I find that Groucho's and Julez's lasts posts are quite illuminating too in the development of this thread, but I will wait to come back to them later.

At the end of this topic, we all will find or confirm that Jesus is the ROCK to build upon! And will find and confirm that homosexuality (the original issue of this thread) is not an obstacle (sin?) for our Dearest and Sweetest Lord's Love!

This thread is just an other kind of approaching to this issue.

So, let's continue with our discussion.

Your brother in Christ, our Lord,
Brakhus

Hmmm.....This is one of my lightning speed, multi-tasking over 5 min. lunch posts again! Let's see....
1. Claudia, have a great trip!
2. Groucho -- I like that 4 question process for screening my own actions as well. Had never seen it detailed as well before, though.
3. Rose -- Agreed that God is usually pretty good about being straight forward when it comes to telling us about our sins!
4. As to the illustration about eating mussels, Brakhus....I think there are areas in the Bible where "rules" are given that are more common sense rules for living in those times (e.g., some foods back then were more easily contaminated than others) & also some rules that applied specifically to the Levites, if I'm not mistaken. I guess I've always considered those "rules" as different than, say, The Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandements are pretty cut and dried--"Thou shalt NOT" & are not equivocal at all! So some things that are listed as "wrong" by the rules given in some of those books of the Bible were in fact "wrong" for that time and place, but were not necessarily SIN as in always wrong morally forever. Does that make sense?
5. I often struggle with things like religious wars, etc., precisely because I can't understand how anything righteous can involve children being hurt. I probably always will struggle with that! It falls under that category of "Things I Don't Understand" & I have a long list of things in there I'm planning on pursuing answers to when I meet up with God face-to-face one day! At some point, too, it becomes frightening because people may CLAIM that God told them this or that religious war or confrontation was His will....but some people ARE delusional, you know....So it's a struggle for me personally to sort that out as well. I hope that makes sense.

That's my quickie 5 minute lunch post for the day! Brakhus, continue to "provoke" away!

While I was napping and Praying today, I felt The Lord speaking to me about this question of sin. He reminded me that whatever we do to the least of these, my brethren, we do it to Him, whether it be feeding Him or letting Him remain hungry! Visiting Him in prison, or forgetting Him. He showed me whatever action we take, it is directly an action for or against Him. That seems to make clearer what actually is sin or not sin!

I'm still here, leaving on Wed, just no time for long posts....I just came home from a movie. It was called "As in heaven" , a Swedish movie, nominated for an Oscar as the best foreign movie.....It was AWESOME and if anybody gets the chance to see it ...go and see it....it will touch your heart.....I was reminded of this thread when the pastor and his wife got into a discussion about sin....he reproached her having sinned ( she had danced very openly and happily in the new church choir group) and she had to ask for forgiveness.....she yelled back at him that there doesn't have to be forgiveness because there was already God's grace.....I cannot remember the whole conversation but it was about how judgemental people are and how churches made up so much concerning sins and no one is better than the other ( she pulled out the little sex journals that the pastor had hidden behind the good books,and confronted him with his own sins.....

Meine liebe Julez:
Danke schön für Ihre Freundlichkeit.
Ich wünsche sich eine glückliche Reise, und dass der Herr Sie begleitet.

Dear Julez:
As you can see, "mein deustche sprache" is even worse than my english one, but I wanted post like that, as a special gift for you.

God bless you and take care of you.