It's been a long time and a lot of water under the bridge since I posted here last. At that time, I had been thru a long process of coming to terms with being a lesbian and studying scripture to assess for myself exactly where God stands on homosexuality. I had concluded that the condemnations of apparent homosexuality in scripture were in the context of ritual worship of pagan dieties and thus not applicable to me. I was totally free to be me.

Several months later in my regular Bible reading, I came across Deuteronomy 12:31. It completely and absolutely shattered my previous conclusion. It reads: "You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."

Moses is admonishing the Israelites about staying separate from the Gods of the inhabitants of the land into which they are moving. He states that God hates the things they do when they worship. Altho, he uses human sacrifice of children as a specific example, homosexual acts were also part of the cult worship (I posted a link to an article on that here last summer). Before I read this passage, I believed God hated certain acts because of their connection to pagan worship but this verse says just the opposite. God hates ritual worship of false gods because of its connection to acts he detests.

Words cannot express my devestation. I've carried this inside me for months and I see no way out of it. Does anyone else?

Blessings,
Lyric

Dear Lyric - I'm hear to bring you good news! We are no longer under the Old Covenant and the Levitical Laws (Ephesians 2:14-22; Galatians 3:10; Colossians 2:13-23; Hebrews 8:13)! No longer must we abstain from pork and shellfish, put women on their menstrual cycle 'out-of-the-camp', or slay our children who disobey their parents.

No doubt about it, God hates for us to worship anything or anyone that causes us to lose sight of Him (and thus breaking the first commandment of Love). Such acts are even more grievous if they cause harm or hurt to others or ourselves (breaking the second commandment of Love). Burning ones children as a sacrifice to the gods (Deut 12:31) would certainly fall into this category. As would ritualistic prostitution (both heterosexual and homosexual) which endangers the health of both parties and is not exactly an act of ‘love’.

However I see no way on God’s green earth that a loving gay relationship in any way or form breaks God’s great commandment of love from which flows all of God’s will and desire for us.

Matthew 22:34-40 (NIV)
“Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Galatians 5:14 (Amplified)
“For the whole law [concerning human relationships] is complied within one precept. You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.”

Romans 13:8-10 (NIV)
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 Cor 13:13 (NLT)
"and the greatest of these is love."

Lyric,

I read the Scripture you are refering to and you left out the two previous sentences, which make one whole statement. I am posting the whole Scriptural statement Lyric. Please read it and let your heart rest. Elaine, what you said is very true, we keep trying to place ourselves under the Law which will always bring condemnation. We are no longer under the Law but Grace and the leading of the Holy Spirit.


AMPLIFIED BIBLE
29 When the Lord your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go to dispossess, and you dispossess them and live in their land,

30 Be watchful that you are not ensnared into following them after they have been destroyed before you and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? We will do likewise.

31 You shall not do so to the Lord your God, for every abominable thing which the Lord hates they have done for their gods. For even their sons and their daughters they have burned in the fire to their gods.

32 Whatever I command you, be watchful to do it; you shall not add to it or diminish it.


We are talking about ritual and idol worship here and not relationship betwwen two people. There is quite a difference as to what they are refering to.

THIS IS THE NEW KING JAMES VERSION:THIS IS THE TITLE OF THIS SECTION, "BEWARE OF FALSE GODS" THE TRANSLATORS ARE SAYING SPECIFICALLY WHAT THESE VERSES ARE REFERING TO.

BEWARE OF FALSE GODS
29 "When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land,

30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'

31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.



MORE GRACE AND PEACE LYRIC,
ROSE






Isa 54:16,17
"See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 No weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me," declares the LORD.


Love Alters Not with his brief hours and weeks,
But Bears It Out Even To The Edge Of Doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, Nor no woman ever Loved.

William Shakespeare


It's a Love that never ends!
Tret Fure

Hi Elaine.

I understand about not being under the Law. That's not even the issue here. Did you ever read Euthyphro by Plato? In it Socrates asks Euthyphro is a thing just because the gods love it or do the gods love a thing because it is just? In like manner, I must ask, does God hate a thing because it is unlawful or is a thing unlawful because God hates it. Since God is without change, if he ever hated any behavior, he still does today. From Euthyphro's dilemma to my own. In this light, whether or not we are under law is irrelevant.

I don't want it to be wrong. God, I love her so!

Blessings.
Lyric

PS What's up with HTML in signatures for this folder? I had to edit out my sig because the code was showing.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rose:
I read the Scripture you are refering to and you left out the two previous sentences, which make one whole statement...

We are talking about ritual and idol worship here and not relationship betwwen two people. There is quite a difference as to what they are refering to.

---

Hi Rose,

I had read the previous verse and spent many months contemplating their meaning. I can't see how the context of ritual worship changes the fact that God hated what they did. I wish I could.

Blessings.
Lyric

Good Evening Lyric
Good news . What you see here is again abuse of the same sex relationship . not only that but they had no word for homosexual. I read this scripture that is bothering you . it didnt mention anything even close to a loving gay/lebian relationship/ yes God would deplore anything that was abusive . no matter what the situation .i think that God hates what is bad and abusive.to me it wasnt the acts that were bad it was the misuse of them.
The bible has hunderds of passages condemning certain hetero sex practices also. again its the abuse . God states not to do what they are doing./ they are doing these things in a context of abuse so yes God would not approve . this list that God has is one that lists things that when abused he hates .this is the list of abused things .
any sex when misused is wrong.
hope this helps
God Bless All

Lynn

I would have to stand in agreement with Lady. But I very much respect that you are interested in REALLY knowing what God wants, not just what YOU want Him to want for you. I would think that from what I have learned about Jesus, and His focus on people's HEARTS, God is interested in what is going on in the heart of the people- these people are praising idols in their heart as they offer their bodies to these non-existant "gods". Their hearts are not for God...He did not even ask them to DO this. This is a question of WHY people are doing something.
I would continue to take this to God in prayer. Many of us have been on the rollercoaster you are on. But HE is steadfast and firm. What HE says is the truth. Seek Him, and the answers will come.

Quote by Lyric:Hi Rose,

I had read the previous verse and spent many months contemplating their meaning. I can't see how the context of ritual worship changes the fact that God hated what they did. I wish I could.

Blessings.
Lyric

Response by ROSE:
Lyric, We are talking about ritual worship! Having sex in the temple with multiple partners or temple prostitutes!!! Do any of us practice that???? I don't think so!!! I think I consider that kind of sexual activity an abomination myself!!! Yukkkkk!!! I think what the Bible is describing is not Commited same sex relationships! I'm not talking about just having sex with a gay partner. I'm talking about a married committed relationship. I think there is a world of difference. Not because I say so, or want to see it that way, but because what the Bible is describing is not the same as Marriage to a same sex partner.

Keep on seeking Him!!!
ROSE



ECCLESIASTES 5
2 Be not rash with your mouth, and let not your Heart be hasty to utter a Word before God. For God is in Heaven, and you are on earth; therefore let your Words be few.

4 When you Vow a Vow or make a Pledge to God, do not put off paying it; for God has no pleasure in fools (those who witlessly mock Him). Pay What You Vow.

5 It is better that you should not Vow, than that you should Vow and Not Pay.

6 Do not allow your mouth to cause your body to sin, and do not say before the Messenger that it was an Error or Mistake. Why should God be [Made] Angry at your voice and Destroy the work of your hands?

PSALM 15
1 Lord, who shall Abide in Thy Tabernacle? Who Shall Dwell In Thy Holy Hill?

2 He that Walketh Uprightly, and Worketh Righteousness, and Speaketh the Truth in his(her) Heart.

3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but He Honoureth Them That Fear The LORD. He that Sweareth to his(her) own hurt, And Changeth Not.


IT'S A LOVE THAT NEVER ENDS
TRET FURE

Lyric God hates what they did becuase the way they did it was abusive. he knew that .
he hates what they do becuase the way they do it is abusive.

Lynn

Hi Lyric
Heres what my Pastor had to say about those verses.
I guess I'm not seeing the connection to homosexuality - my bible has Deut 12:31 as

31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.


Its a whole scripture about not falling into pagan idol worship and being assimilated into a godless blood cult. How is that about us???
In other words you have read something into this that isnt there. hope this helps
God Bless All

Lynn

hi Lyric
sorry for the multiy posts this will be the last one unless . another is requested
this again comes from my pastor.
It sounds to me like she is usuing remote and unnconnected scriptures because she is punishing herself about being gay and thinks God should punish her too. There is a better path than that - she needs self love, and then she will feel the God love that is already there
Please know that God loves you just the way you are .
God Bless You and all

Lynn

...in worshiping their gods... homosexual acts were a huge part of pagan worship rituals.

...they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates... can we be sure homosexual sex isn't one of the detestable things God hates?

The way the verse is worded it seems God hated what they did and would have whether or not it was done in ritual worship or otherwise.

Blessings.
Lyric

Lyric,
Let's bring this issue into today! If you went to any christian Church and saw people, gay or straight having sex on the altar! Do you think that would be considered detestable? Do you think if the people of the past were practicing straight sex in their temples, would that somehow make it acceptable? No matter who participates in sexual acts, it was never intended to be with more than two people in the privacy of their own home or space, in the context of the Marriage bed only! Sex has no rightful or Godly part in any open forum. Especially in the worship of other gods.

GRACE AND PEACE,
ROSE



ECCLESIASTES 5
2 Be not rash with your mouth, and let not your Heart be hasty to utter a Word before God. For God is in Heaven, and you are on earth; therefore let your Words be few.

4 When you Vow a Vow or make a Pledge to God, do not put off paying it; for God has no pleasure in fools (those who witlessly mock Him). Pay What You Vow.

5 It is better that you should not Vow, than that you should Vow and Not Pay.

6 Do not allow your mouth to cause your body to sin, and do not say before the Messenger that it was an Error or Mistake. Why should God be [Made] Angry at your voice and Destroy the work of your hands?

PSALM 15
1 Lord, who shall Abide in Thy Tabernacle? Who Shall Dwell In Thy Holy Hill?

2 He that Walketh Uprightly, and Worketh Righteousness, and Speaketh the Truth in his(her) Heart.

3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but He Honoureth Them That Fear The LORD. He that Sweareth to his(her) own hurt, And Changeth Not.


IT'S A LOVE THAT NEVER ENDS
TRET FURE

Okay Lyric
it comes down to this , either you want our help or you dont !
you have to accept that the interpetations we are giving you are the right ones ! is someone talking to you ?
They are wrongggggggg .
We will pray for you .and hope that you come to peace within yourself ! .
I know that God loves me just the way iam . He made Me this way. nothing else had a hand in it.
So if someone is talking to you and as a sideline they hope they can get to someothers on this list through you ! it wont work.
God Bless All For we all are his childern !

Lynn

God Bless You Lyric,
And take whatever time and Prayer you need to feel confident before the Lord. I know it is hard Sister! Keeping you in Prayer as you search His will in your Life. Whether you are ever convinced, Yea or Nay, it doesn't matter! You are the Apple of His Eye! Keep your Heart on Jesus and you will be just fine!

HIS GRACE AND PEACE,
ROSE



ECCLESIASTES 5
2 Be not rash with your mouth, and let not your Heart be hasty to utter a Word before God. For God is in Heaven, and you are on earth; therefore let your Words be few.

4 When you Vow a Vow or make a Pledge to God, do not put off paying it; for God has no pleasure in fools (those who witlessly mock Him). Pay What You Vow.

5 It is better that you should not Vow, than that you should Vow and Not Pay.

6 Do not allow your mouth to cause your body to sin, and do not say before the Messenger that it was an Error or Mistake. Why should God be [Made] Angry at your voice and Destroy the work of your hands?

PSALM 15
1 Lord, who shall Abide in Thy Tabernacle? Who Shall Dwell In Thy Holy Hill?

2 He that Walketh Uprightly, and Worketh Righteousness, and Speaketh the Truth in his(her) Heart.

3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but He Honoureth Them That Fear The LORD. He that Sweareth to his(her) own hurt, And Changeth Not.


IT'S A LOVE THAT NEVER ENDS
TRET FURE

Lyric . . .

I'm not the brightest light bulb on the back porch, but after years of struggle, inner debate, turmoil, and seeking the Lord's wisdom, I've come to this conclusion:

Does it make any sense at all that the Creator, having just created an eagle, would condemn it for flying?
Would He condemn the dog He created for barking?

Does He, the Creator of all true love, condemn me for being what He created and loving what He put in me naturally to love?

No, it simply cannot be, and nowhere in Scripture is such a premise implied or defended.

True love, my friend, has nothing whatsoever to do with self-satisfying lust, which is what was happening in that pagan temple under the guise of "worship."

Lyric,

Just a thought: I'm sure if you continue your research into pagan practices you will find that heterosexual sex acts were also a big part of their worship. Yet clearly God does not condemn all heterosexual acts just because some people used sex wrongly. Don't just single out homosexual acts - reflect rather on the context of these acts. God does not want us to worship false gods, and does not want couples of any gender combination fornicating on the altar.

Ingrid

I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. Even if I were 100% sure that same sex relationships were not sinful, the woman I love renounced and repented homosexuality last fall and is not waivering in that decision. I made committments to her and I will be faithful in honoring them as long as I have breath. I'm sorry for wasting your time. Just every now and then I lose my mind...
Blessings.
Lyric

Lyric —

Please don't apologize for "wasting our time" — for if that were necessary, we'd ALL be apologizing to each other ALL the time.

That's why this site exists as far as I'm concerned — to stay in constant connection with dear sisters who are carrying their like crosses right alongside of me. We all struggle at various times to understand, to learn, to grow, to deepen, and most of all — to seek and know the Lord's will for our lives.

There's not one of us who has not second-, third-, and fourth-guessed ourselves and what we believe, or think we believe.

I've mentioned it before — I'm 54 years old. You can't imagine what I would have given to have had such a support system when I was a lonely teenager, alienated from my peers and the things that fascinated them in the '60s (the Beatles, etc.). . . . No one to talk to (certainly not my family), except for a little friend my own age, who though incredibly boy-crazy, was wise enough to consider my "cross" on a depth and sensitivity that most adults wouldn't — couldn't — touch.

Bottom line — please stay in touch with us. We're all working out our salvation, and the Lord has given us each other. From all across the United States, Canada, France, England, Australia, all over the world — we come together in a tight sisterhood here. No boundaries here that would separate.

I believe this with all my heart.

Lyric even if we assume for the moment that these passages are talking about all homosexual relationships/practices (something that has zero basis in Scripture or practical sense for that matter...). You are still faced with a major delemma. And that is this.

WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LEVITICAL LAW.

Let me state that again...

WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LEVITICAL LAW.

Once again....

Christ has died for our sins and WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LEVITICAL LAW.

Now... if you are having trouble accepting this I would be happy to supply you with ample Scripture to back up my statement that ...

WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LEVITICAL LAW.

elaine

1 Cor 13:13 (NLT)
"and the greatest of these is love."