We all know Jesus forgave those that mocked him at his crucifixion..
but does anyone know if he ever forgave Judas?

What a great question! I don't think it's mentioned in scripture.

It's my guess that Jesus knew Judas needed to do what he did and therefore there was nothing to forgive.

What do others think?

Jesus certainly knew is advance what Judas was going to do, and told him "What you must do, do quickly." I don't think Jesus would refuse to forgive what was certainly part of the overall plan.
Ingrid

Oh Lord! Dear Pyro: You are great! Do you know what are you coming us into? Is a wonderful and simultaneously very hard (and heavy) issue!!! Do you have any idea about what this mean for the whole salvation matter's requirements? Can you imagine where this thread could take us into? Because, as our dear Ingrid posted:

quote:

(...)was certainly part of the overall plan

But, you asked for it. So, let's take a look about possible forgiveness of Judas.

First, I think there is nothing to forgive about Judas, because he did what it was supposed to do. But you must not trust in what I think, because I could be wrong, as you know. So, let me ask:

What it could happen if Judas had refused to give Jesus to the authorities? What about the "overall plan"?

Brakhus, I'm not great.. The reason I asked this question actually was for a more personal reason. Sorry.

Dear sister Pyro:

I beg your pardon if I said something inapropriate to you, I truly beg you. I'm really sorry because I didn't want it.

I said yor are great, because you are. No matter what the personal reason was for posted what yo did (Please notice that I respect it as much as I can), I guess you are leading us into a great discussion, because there is a very important issues of faith in your question. Very, very important ones.

As you can see along my posts, I've got a big problem with opportunities. For your question I see another opportunity to discuss such a very important issues, and I'm so excited by that.

I read always your posts because I find them very interesting, thoughtful and sincere, and those qualities are very appreciated for me.

Please, with my heart in your hands, forgive me if I did anything wrong, my dear sister.

I insist that you are a very intelligent, lovely, sincere and clear poster here, and so I think you are great. Just like that.

God bless us, dear sister, to you and me, in order to continue in edifying our faith and in spreading our Lord's Love.

So, let's analyze what is all about Judas and his behavior in those days. Thanks to you, dear sister, we could go forward in the knowledge and understanding.

And I said in my last post: "There is nothing to forgive about Judas". This doesn't mean that what Judas did isn't worthy of forgiveness, or it is beyond forgiveness. Not at all. I mean that he did what it was supposed to do. But: what about the treason? Wasn't it an horrible act and a huge sin agains the Lord?

Imagine this: We are in the garden, hidden in darkness, waiting for Judas and the roman soldiers. When they arrives we jump over them and defeat them (Do you remember when Peter cutted off some ear?). We take Judas and kidnap him until things were peaceful, suppose, for two or three months. Simultaneously, we convince the High Priest and the jew clergy to stop the persecution against the Christ, and we get that roman authorities to stop it as well. What could happened with the sacrifice for our sins and for our reconcilation with God?

Let me open my heart on this: Since my childhood, when reading the Gospels, I suffered to death, what happened with our Sweet Lord. I wished to be there to stop such an injustice. For God's sake! There was the most kindly, lovely, peaceful, mercy (and I don't have enough words to going on) man in the whole Earth, the Christ, and they wanted to kill Him! Oh, dear God, how much I wished to be there to stop such horrible thing!!! I imagined myself shouting among the crowd: "JESUS, JESUS, JESUS!!!!", when Pilatos asked for the liberation of one of the two prisoners. But, now, in my older years, I asked to myself: If I did that stopping, and asked for Jesus, Was I acting for God's plan or against it? Do you know what I mean? What it could happen if Pilatos, because my shouting, liberated Jesus? As you see, is a hard, heavy and deep issue.

That is the reason because of what, I think your question is very, very important for our faith. So, I still think you are great, dear Pyro.

I love you so much in our Lord's Love.

Your brother in Christ, Brakhus.

Brakhus, you are always such a sweetheart. There is nothing to pardon or forgive, you have said nothing wrong. You just give me much more credit than I deserve. Your posts are always such a pleasure to read.

Te amo, mi hermano en Cristo!

Even if we had been there and shouted out "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus," and stopped Jesus from be crucified, wouldn't God see to it that He was still crucified at a later date to fulfill to prophesy? He is God, after all. He can do anything.

Just a thought...
~Byrd

Thank you, dear sister Pyro. Your words comfort me so much. God bless you, dear sister.

So, let's come back to our point: Judas.

I think and insist in our dear Ingrid posted:

quote:

(...)was certainly part of the overall plan

This a very important argument. If we know the overall plan of God, as was described by prophecies, it seems that our Jesus had to die in the cross, and I guess Judas knew it as well. If we didn't know the prophecies and the Plan, there was not any problem, but the problem is because we know, as Judas had to know it.

Consider this two things:

1)In Gethsemane, when Peter saw the soldiers, he took his sword and cutted off the servant's ear. And Jesus reprimanded him.

2) Our Lord knew ahead of time what there would be to make Judas, and despite, He chose him like one of the apostles. And in the Supper, he commanded him: "What thou doest, do quickly" (John 13:27 ASV)

So, my question is still open: If I had shouted, was I acting for or against God's plan?

I am not absolutely sure,

But I think Judas was lost! Jesus said that He would have to be taken, but woe to the man who was responsible for His Betrayal, It would have been better if that man had NEVER been born.

Scripture also refers to Judas as the son of Perdition and said the devil entered into him just before he betrayed Jesus!

Now we are not talking about average everyday sin, slipping and falling or missing the mark, we are talking about someone who was so given over to the devil that, the devil was literally able to enter Judas. He chose his master and it was not Christ!

Jesus was very clear about doing the works of the devil because he is their father. Judas may very well have realized he made a huge mistake, but his feeling bad about the betrayal didn't lead to his restoration, like Peter!


ROSE

Very good point, dear Rose!!!

With your post this discussion will be more enlightening!

Let's see what our brethren think about all of this.

Rose, you bring up an interesting point. But my question then becomes...Who do we forgive? If someone is "Of the devil" do we not forgive them? I struggle with this regarding people like Charles Manson, Osama Bin Laden etc. I am not trying to start a debate, just curious. The original question was "did Jesus forgive Judas?" If we don't forgive...what do we do? We hate? Are we allowed to chose who we love or do we love unconditionally to all? Not who we like, but love. Ok, enough questions for one day.

Hmm.....INTERESTING questions...I struggle with the Charles Manson thing all the time, Groucho--probably because he just LOOKS MORE EVIL than anyone I can think of--his eyes, you know? Anyway, it seems to me that Jesus/God always stands ready to forgive those who ask. So the question is really about the state of Judas' heart (or Charlie's or Osama's)....If there is no repenting, there can be no pardoning. (I personally think Judas did repent; after all, he hung himself, right?) There can still be forgiveness even without repenting, but that's not necessarily the same thing as pardoning. Does that make sense? If someone harms me and goes to prison for it, I can forgive them in my heart. That doesn't mean they don't serve their sentence. If a person is truly sorry and has a repentent heart, I think they are "pardoned" by God as well. I'm relieved that I only have to deal with the forgiveness issue on this earth myself & leave the pardoning decisions to God!

Well Groucho, you have stumbled across the reason I asked this question:
Do we forgive someone who has wronged us and has no remorse for what they did? I know a very dear friend of mine says, "Yes", and I know why. But it's so much easier said than done. What happens when you tell God over and over you forgive someone for something, but no matter how many times you say it, your own thoughts testify against you...? (Ok, I guess that's really another topic.)

Jesus said to forgive anyone who asks to be forgiven. Jesus forgave those that didn't know what they were doing. But did he forgive someone (Judas) who knew full well what he was doing? (Betraying a "friend" for a few pieces of silver.)

As far as Judas' eternal destiny goes; according to Jesus, Judas was lost. Jesus said in John 17:12, "...I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."
(Hmmm... kinda takes us back to my "this passage is bugging me" post, huh?)
Anyway, Jesus was not talking about Judas killing himself, because he hadn't even betrayed him, let alone hung himself. (or "falling headlong" and....) -Acts 1:18)

This is a great thread guys!

To answer the original question, Yes!!! I believe Jesus forgave Judas! Receiving that forgivness is a totally different story!

The Bible teaches that God is not willing that (ANY) should perish, but that (ALL) would be Saved! (Or come to repentance)

It is a Fact that God intends that the World be Saved by the Sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son Jesus, but it also teaches that many will reject that Salvation and Choose Eternal Death instead. Why???? Because some are Sons of God, and some are sons of their Father the devil!!!

Forgiveness was purchased, or paid for by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ Himself!(God come down in the flesh) That forgiveness is available for "Whosever Will", "Will" being the "KEY" word! Whosover Won't will be lost!

So although Jesus provided forgiveness for each one of us, including Judas, it was Judas decision to rebel and betray Jesus to the priests.

It is not for us to know who is Saved and who is lost, God being the Judge of all, but it is for us to "KNOW" that everyone who comes to Jesus as Savior and repenting of sin, He will in no wise cast out!

Pyro,
Should we forgive betrayal??? Knowing that it is done on purpose and that there is no remorse, repentance, or restoration???
Yes, because whoever doesn't forgive will not be forgiven, Scripture clearly teaches that.

Does extending forgiveness mean it automatically makes us pain free??? I think not!!! Forgiveness is a decision, not a feeling, just like Love and Marriage is a decision, not a feeling! The Bible teaches Love your enemies!!!

No one can make those that betray repentent, only the Holy Spirit can move on them and especially if you Love enough to hold those up in Prayer that despitefully use you!

They get to choose their own fate! The Bible says that it would be better for them to hang a millstone around their neck and be drowned in the sea, then to offend one of these little ones! (I believe Jesus is referring to anyone who believes on Him and not just little children).

Though we can extend that Love and Forgiveness,(Like Jesus told us to) each person will stand before God on Judgement day when the books are opened and be judged according to their works. Even those that are Born Again will have to give an accounting of every idle Word they spoke, including betrayal Pyro!

They (Believers) will have built on a foundation of Gold Silver and Precious stones, or they will have amassed a Bonfire of wood, hay, and stubble!! The tears that will fall for all the loss I believe will be many when their works are tried by His Fire!!!! Forgive and Keep Praying for all those that hurt you, so you may be the Sons of your Father Who IS in Heaven!!!


HIS STRENGTH TO FORGIVE DAILY,
ROSE

Ohhhhh!!!! I was blind!
I believe that I understand now, dear Pyro.
What a fool I was!!! Please excuse me for my rush and my ignorance. How it was possible? I didn't see it! Oh my!

If there is an ocasion when I must ask your pardon, dear Pyro, is this. I just didn't see it.

Well, I hope I'm not too late to redirect my thoughts and restablish what must be done. So, I'm going to put the Judas' issue aside for a moment, and I'll focus in the very right point.

Dear Pyro: Do you bestow me a little moment to think on what must be thought, and ask for Help from High in order to do what is right? I want to be really useful.

(I still think you are great and now, I know I'm a fool)

Brakhus, you are NOT a fool and you are not ignorant! Please- you don't need to be pardoned. There is so much to learn from scripture and so many different things we can get out of one passage or one story. If one verse takes you one place and me another, that is wonderful. The Bible is God's living word and it is good that we can discuss and learn such diverse things from one story.

Brakhus I'm so glad you are here on these boards.
I welcome your thoughts anytime and enjoy reading everything you have to say. I always find it interesting. Thank you Brakhus for sharing with us as you do. We all love you!!!
Please discuss whatever you like under this post or wherever you feel it leads you.

My very dear friend has reminded me that yes we should forgive, but that it doesn't make us forget.

Ok Rose, you can come down now. Point taken. I love ya. Thanks.

quote:

Dew Doc.... "(I personally think Judas did repent; after all, he hung himself, right?)

Rose....."Scripture also refers to Judas as the son of Perdition and said the devil entered into him just before he betrayed Jesus!"

Hmmmm a question.... what about the child whose father sought healing for his boy who kept throwing himself in the fire because "the devil entered into him and was trying to kill him"? Could not have Satan have entered into Judas as well at the point where "Judas went out and hanged himself"? I know he entered into Judas before he betrayed Jesus but I was just wondering maybe he DID not repent.

Katie

Thank you dear Pyro.
But let me explain:

When you posted I focused only in the status of Judas, and everything about it, including his possible forgiveness. I didn't get, at that time, your personal reasons, as you correct me quite well. And you were right, because I was lost. So, this is my blindness.

In my last post, I asked for some time to think deeply and prayerful about the real issue. But I was very suprised when our dear Rose posted what I was thinking just 4 min. before!!!

Our Lord is working, as you can see.

I find Rose's post a wonderful one. She said what I was thinking about, but she stated too much better than I ever could. Please, take your time to meditate on what our dear and faithful sister said unto you directly. It is so worthy.

So, as always, I could be as I am, (some kind of twisting guy), therefore I could sugest:

Do you think we can divide this thread in two parts? One for Judas and all about him, and one for the gift of forgiveness?

I know that within the first one also is the second, but what happened to Judas could lead us into a very hard theological discussion. So, I think that we can discuss it by apart, and let for the "spiritual issues" category, all what is perteining to forgiveness, and what this means for us as christians and for our lives.

Blessings for everyone.

Well, I see that my question was answered automatically by Moondragon (Is the Holy Spirit working on this? Hmmm )

In the category "Spiritual Issues and Growth", forum "This and That - Spiritual...", our dear sister Moondragon started a topic titled, precisely: "Forgiveness".

It is developing wonderfully (but I did a mess, again), so I encourage everybody to take a look, and contribute with what you want.

Blessings.

P.S. If we continue here with the Judas' issue, I think we could dig deeper. God's Living Word has much more to say unto us yet!