I know better than to take an obscure passage and read more into it than
what it means, but for some reason this one has just been bugging me.
Romans 9:20-21 *Verse 21 in particular.

Does God willfully make some people a certain way, knowing they will never
stand a chance of being saved? Is that what this verse is saying?

Romans 9:20-21
Pyro, here are the verses in the NLT: "No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who made it, "Why have you made me like this?" [21] When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?" I have done a little research for you in a couple different translations and checked both life application and another footnoted reference. I hope this footnote helps clear up any questions you have...

Romans 9:20,21 "To question the morality of God's actions is incongruous. Creatures have no right to object to what their Creator does. However, such teaching should never lead us to think that sinners could not believe if they wanted to, for Scripture does not teach that. It repeatedly affirms that 'whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved' (10:13). This appeal of Scripture to unbelievers is consistent throughout both the OT and NT, see John 6:37." Further study also shows this truth. There is the verse John 3:16 which says that God wishes that none shall perish. God's Word confirms that He wants everyone to have the opportunity to be saved. I particulary like 2 Peter 3:9.

Pyro,

It also says that God is "NOT WILLING" that "ANY" should perish, but that "ALL" would come to repentance!!!


HIS GRACE AND LIGHT,
ROSE

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent."

I'm SO glad He was willing to wait for me!

So the verse that says He has power "to make one vessel unto honour and another to dishonour";
Why and who would He choose to make dishonorable?

God does not see "honor" and "dishonor" as we do. What we may view as "dishonorable" God may view as very "honorable". God looks at the heart. We seem to look at everything else but. I do not totally understand this verse but have to step back and realize that "honor" and "dishonor" to God and to us many times are two very different things.

Matt 19:30 (NIV)
"But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."

Pyro: Your question about God making a "vessel to dishonor" rather threw me at first so I decided to look at a couple different translations to see if they could help me understand. I noticed that you are using King James and sometimes I don't really understand what that is saying. I have a version that helps a little by showing the Greek and Hebrew of certain words, but even that didn't help me today. So I tried another translation and maybe this one will help you too.... The New Century Version says it this way, v 21 "The potter can make anything He wants to make. He can use the same clay to make one thing for special use and another thing for daily use." Somehow that made this verse a bit more clear to me. If I think of a potter throwing clay to produce a beautiful vase as opposed to throwing the same lump of clay to create a pot for cooking one is for display and one is utilitarian. I would be hard pressed to bake apples in a vase of fine porcelain, and I'd be foolish to try. However, I don't display my clay apple baker which is not glazed and rather stained nor do I fill it with spring flowers, I know it's purpose and use it for that purpose. Not everything can be utilitarian, some things are for "special use" eg. porcelain vase vs clay baker. Anyone else have another line of reasoning here? I'm just giving an opinion that seems right to me.

Pyro,
I think Katie's message if very helpful, and hopw you find it so. I think "dishonorable" is a word that people use. We are all honorable in God's sight - we are all God's children. It is people who draw distinctions. Yes, we are all different, but we all have a place, and work to do for God. Sometimes that whick seems least honorable is most useful - after all, where would we be without garbage cans?
Ingrid

Hey, Pyro!

Thanks for asking about this passage. This is the kind of thing that often trips me up in the Bible, and leads me to doubt.

Anyone ever read C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters", where a demon is in training to derail the efforts and faith of Christians. What an effective weapon our enemy uses by planting doubts about God's Word in us! Thanks for asking the question, and thanks Katie for such a clear answer. Wow.

searcher

I don't know if this will help- it is just my musings....but when people were talking about their own items and how they use them, this thought came into my mind- While a Ming vase may be valuable in terms of price and worth, the clay apple baker is much more valuable in our own lives. My skillet (Which is metal) is more valuable and usable to me, personally than a Ming vase that I would set on a shelf, insure and worry over. It is actually, of no value except to look at or sell. It does not allow us to be nourished...which gives us life.
Let me use as an example, two women- Corrie Ten Boom (The Hiding Place) and Mother Teresa. Neither were anything to "look" at. Both suffered tremendously. Neither were well known until they were older- well into middle age. But who were more useful to God? A model or movie star? Or these two women who willingly CHOSE to be "apple bakers". Who has helped nourish your soul? The latest A-List movie star, or hearing either of these women give the glory to the Lord? I consider Corrie Ten Boom a spiritual mother of sorts. She really made an impact on my faith, especially when I thought my life had been so much worse than anyone else's. While a book about some entertainer has amused me, a book by Corrie Ten Boom has challenged my life and my soul.
Which reminds me of some men in my life- what about the Youth Pastor that came every week to visit me in juvenile hall years and years (and Years!) ago- do you think that his sacrifice had a lasting impact on me? It did. And the Greatest Example of All- We see Jesus as more precious and valuable than any created thing on Earth...but go back two thousand years, and He was seen as a simple man, even a rabble rouser. He did not travel in the "upper crust" circles, nor did He want to. He was plain, simple and turned the world on its axis. Without Him, this Man, not born into a palace, coddled and guarded continually as He deserved, I would be lost, as would myriads of others. So in light of this, how do you THINK God views this pottery He has wrought?
Think about who has made a difference in your life and your eternal faith, which is your treasure...was it the ming vase, or the clay apple baker?

Blyth,

It was refreshing to see this thread opened again for re-examination. I had forgotten about the apple baker and the ming vase over the past many months. Thank you Blyth for your well thought response. It made me think about one woman whose life and testimony impacted my Christian walk and continues to do so years after she went home to be with the Lord. Eugenia Price was not what the world would consider a beautiful woman. For her earliest years she would have been considered a pagan and a hedonist, (her words not mine) but when apprehended by the Living Lord and turned from worldly to heavenly minded, Eugenia became a force for our Savior. As writer and producer of "Unshackled" she had a forum for the testimonies of hundreds, perhaps thousands of other "not so lovely" men and women who turned to Jesus and were "beautiful" in His eyes. As author, her testimony inspired me. Not a "looker" by the world's standards but a hope to lift the eyes of many toward the Risen Lord, Eugenia, a "clay apple baker" for the Lord became through Him a trophy of God's grace.

Now this thread is active, what do others have to share?
As Blyth has asked "how do the THINK God views this pottery He has wrought? Think about who has made a difference in your life and your eternal faith, which is your treasure...was it the ming vase, or the clay apple baker." Would you share with us????

Isaiah 52:14-15
"Many were amazed when they saw Him—beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely know he was a person. [15] And He will again startle many nations. Kings will stand speechless in his presence. For they will see what they had not previously been told about; they will understand what they had not heard about."

In Him and because He lives, Katie

Thanks to my dear sisters, I have now the opportunity to access some Bible versions (all in english, so I'm less ignorant, now), and because of that, I humbly believe I may propose something more to think about this passage on Rom. 9:21.

First, I want to thanks Pyro for sharing her interest in this difficult point about the authority and power of the Maker and

what could it mean for us as faithful christians. Dear Pyro lovely forced me to study and investigate.

So, let's see what some versions of the Bible have in Rom. 9:21:

[21] Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (New International Version)

[21] Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (New American Standard Version)

[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? (New Living Translation)

[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (King James Version)

[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? (English Standard Version)

[21] Doesn't a potter have the right to make a fancy bowl and a plain bowl out of the same lump of clay?" (Contemporary English Version)

[21] Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? (American Standard Version)

[21] Whether a potter of clay hath not power to make of the same gobbet one vessel into honour, another into despite? [Whether a potter of clay hath not power of the same gobbet to make soothly one vessel into honour, another forsooth into despite, or low office?] (Wycliff e New Testament)

As we can see, the question is about "dishonour" and "common use", or something like that.

As we can see, as well, is a matter of words! (You can see, also, why I started that topic!)

Let's pay attention on what is this verse in original greek-koin�:

quote:

[21] � ouk echei exousian ho kerameus tou p�lou ek tou autou phuramatos poi�sai ho men eis tim�n skeuos, ho de eis atimian;

The key word here is: "atimian" (noun, accus.) which is a deflection of "atimia", commonly translated as: dishonour, disgrace.

This word appears 7 times in New Testament, all of them by Paul's hand, and they are:

1 Cor. 11:14 when is stated that long hair in men is "dishonour";

1 Cor. 15:42 where is often translated as "corruption";

2 Cor. 6:7 -- in glory and dishonour;

2 Cor. 11:21 -- as disparagement

Rom. 1:26 ... Yes, the famous clobber passage!!!! Where is translated as "vil" passions (path� atimias)

And at last but not at least, the better one:

2 Tim. 2:20 Where Paul is talking about the same metaphor about vessels.

Liddell & Scott (A greek-english lexicon) says about atimia: Dishonour, disgrace. Deprivation of privileges.
And Middle Liddell (An intermediate greek lexicon): Dishonour, disgrace. (Athens) the loss of civil rights.

But it is not so easy!

The antonym or opposite to atimia is tim�. The first is the negation of the second (with the negation prefix "a-")

About tim� say Liddell & Scott:

Referring to persons: honour, dignity, lordship.
Referring to things: worth, value, price.

Paul in Rom. 9:21 is talking about vessels and their maker.
Vessels are things, not persons, so, is not quite correct to apply them virtues and vices what only can pertain to moral persons.
And "dishonour" is an adjetive that can literaly express qualities of persons and not of things, so, vessels can be not qualified as "honourables" or "dishonourables", as persons do.

The conclusion of this thought is: As Paul is talking about vessels, and vessels are things, so and according to Liddel & Scott, the word atinia must be translated as unworthy, without value or without price (or so, so, so cheap, I might add!)

So, the Potter can make some vessels so cheap that can we use them daily and then, throw them into garbage.

Let's see 2 Tim. 2:20 in the New Living Translation:

"In a wealthy home some utensils are made of gold and silver, and some are made of wood and clay. The expensive utensils are used for special occasions, and the cheap ones are for everyday use." That is what atimian does mean.

Finally, let's think about the whole meaning of the passage and what can we get for our christian life, and forgive me if this post sounds pedantic and it is too much long, but I didn't know other better and simplier way to post it.

Your brother, Brakhus.

I think most of us quite honestly would opt for the battered up baking pan over the Ming vase now, wouldn't we? I think it's trying to tell us to be happy with how God made us. For example, he made me blonde, straight & somewhat neurotic, yet entertaining. He made Kimmie (I'm using her as an example because I know she won't mind) a redhead who is gay and hyperactive, yet entertaining. We function in the world with different talents, yet we each fill a void in a unique way in this world. And we each would have been cheated of a very wonderful friend if we had never met. Maybe I'm good at medicine. Brakhus is good at law. Rose is a "goat whisperer" whose talent is unsurpassed! We all fulfill a very unique place in the world. Sometimes we may question why God made us the way he did but He really did have a reason for it and He asks that we trust Him about that.

Your commentary is very interesting, dear sister. And I think is very helpful to understand that the differences among the brethren just enrich the church, which is our Lord's Body.

Let me ask you: Do you think that the passage discussed here can be related with the following:

1 Corinthians 12:14-26
"For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, 'Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,' that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, 'Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,' that would not make it any less a part of the body." (and continuing to verse 26)?

Can the passage above be used to support what you posted? I mean, do you think what Paul said reflects your thought about the topic of this thread? Because I think it fits quite well.

Brakhus: I believe you were asking Dew Doc if her insight above is supported in the verses you quote.... you might be interested in the Life Application footnotes and commentary regarding this passage:

1 Cor. 12:12
"The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up only one body. So it is with the body of Christ." NLT

12:12 "Paul compares the body of Christ to a human body. Each part has a specific function that is necessary to the body as a whole. The parts are different for a purpose, and in their differences they must work together. Christians must avoid two common errors: (1) being too proud of their abilities, or (2) thinking they have nothing to give to the body of believers. Instead of comparing ourselves to one another, we should use our different gifts, together, to spread the Good News of salvation."

1 Cor. 12:13
"Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into Christ's body by one Spirit, and we have all received the same Spirit."

12:13 The church is composed of many types of people from a variety of backgrounds with a multitude of gifts and abilities. It is easy for these differences to divide people, as was the case in Corinth. But despite the differences, all believers have one thing in common—faith in Christ. On this essential truth the church finds unity. All believers are baptized by one Holy Spirit into one body of believers, the church. We don’t lose our individual identities, but we have an overriding oneness in Christ. When a person becomes a Christian, the Holy Spirit takes up residence, and he or she is born into God’s family. “We were all given the one Spirit to drink” means that the same Holy Spirit completely fills our innermost beings. As members of God’s family, we may have different interests and gifts, but we have a common goal.

12:14-24 Using the analogy of the body, Paul emphasizes the importance of each church member (see the note on 1 Cor. 12:12). If a seemingly insignificant part is taken away, the whole body becomes less effective. Thinking that your gift is more important than someone else’s is an expression of spiritual pride. We should not look down on those who seem unimportant, and we should not be jealous of others who have impressive gifts. Instead, we should use the gifts we have been given and encourage others to use theirs. If we don’t, the body of believers will be less effective.


Your query was [quote Brakhus]"Your commentary is very interesting, dear sister. And I think is very helpful to understand that the differences among the brethren just enrich the church, which is our Lord's Body."

I found these footnotes an enlightening support of both my analogy of the apple baker and the Ming vase as well as supportive of Dew Doc's post. What do you think?

God bless you, Katie42

Sorry, Brakhus! Have been out of town for a few days & offline....but to answer your question, YES! I do think that Paul's words totally go along with what we've been discussing. How boring & ineffective would a group be if everyone in it were exactly the same? And Katie, you said it very well!

God bless you, dear sisters in Christ! Now and always!!!

I quite agree with your posts. Church is wonderful group of human beings with as many differences as we can find in the Creation. Do, perhaps, all flowers have the same color? Are all days equaly shinning? Do all birds sing the same song? I think, and love, that our Creator delights Himself in variety.

Was Paul a "clon" of Peter?

So, you are quite well in your posts, my dear ones!

And I find in this bugging passage some things very interesting. Even more, than those we were talking about. And one of them, particularly disquieting. Hmmm....

quote:

And I find in this bugging passage some things very interesting. Even more, than those we were talking about. And one of them, particularly disquieting. Hmmm....

Disquieting, Brakhus????
God bless... Katie

I'm affraid this is another too long post, but I'll try to make it as little as I can.

Well, I don't really think that the topic will be truly disquieting, but I said that to put some exciting in this thread. For some people it could be a challenge because it is something... rare?

But this challenging issue, when we solve it, it will be one problem less, I mean, we will not have one of the problems that are, precisely, "disquieting", and we'll be more quiet about what we believe and why.

Well, here it is what I called "disquieting":

The "bugging passage" is Rom. 9:20,21, and we were discussing about verse 21 and the meaning of "dishonourable", which is a translation of the greek word atimian and I proposed the translation as "daily use" like a simple and cheap vase. In that sense, the "apple baker" mentioned by our dear Katie42 is a very good analogy.

But, the passage is within a larger speach beginning with:

Romans 9:14-19 (all the next Bible's quotations are from the American Standard Version):
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? "

And this passage is referring to Egipt's pharaoh during Moses claim for Israel's liberty.
The point in the Exodus narrative is that Jehovah hardened pharaoh's heart in order to show His power and to get His Name published abroad the earth.

Among the times this point about pharaoh's heart's hardening, is this:

Exodus 11:9,10:
"And Jehovah said unto Moses, Pharaoh will not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt. And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and Jehovah hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land."

And we can find the others here (all in Exodus):

4:21
7:3
7:13
7:22
8:15
8:19
8:32
9:7
9:35
10:20
10:27
14:4, 8, 17

So, Jehovah hardened pharaoh's heart to get what He wanted. This seems... rare? So, people could ask: "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?" (Rom. 9:19 NLT) This hard question, is not answered by Paul at once; instead he state: Don't ask such a thing, for who are you to question...?

In Romans 9:22-24, (remember that we are discussing about verses 20 & 21) Paul wrote:
"What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?"

Vessels of wrath?
Fitted for destruction?

Don't you think this whole passage is REALLY bugging?

Yep, I think it's really bugging........Do you think it just means that we can't know what God is thinking & sometimes just have to trust Him? Because what seems like a HORRIBLE series of events to us might be part of a much bigger plan? And that He sees the entire scope of time, from beginning to end, whereas we see just a little piece of it? I'm not sure but that's the best I can come up with.