I recently looked at the Nag Hammadi Library. I then learned that the Nicean Council (325AD) edited and modified the Bible we use today. Much of the original text was edited out and modified. Certain truths and concepts were removed. The Books that were left out of the Bible were regarded as herecy and burned. The Essenes hid much of these writings from the hands of the corrupters. There is much more to Jesus and His teachings than the Bible of our day is revealing.

I am a seeker of Truth. I have a hunger for God that I cannot contain. Prayer and intercession form a vital part of my life. Having the Logos in a pure translation is a necesity. Why were books previously used as scripture now being discarded? What was it about Jesus they wanted to hide from the people?

The Nag Hammadi Library gives us a good understanding of the Jesus that we don't know. Many of His teachings were recorded here. Jesus was a member of the Essene Community. These were people who followed certain teachings. They knew certain truths and secrets we do not know. They were known as the healers and prophets in the land. I think of Elijah, Elisha, John the Baptist and others that were known members of the Essene Brotherhood.

Mary Magdalene =
Mary from Magdala (village in Galilea)
Magdala + Essene -> Magdalene

Jesus the Nazarene =
Jesus from Nazareth (ditto)
Nazareth + Essene -> Nazarene

There is something here we can learn from them. I want to know what they knew. I want to understand what they understood. I want to know the secrets they knew and taught to the members of their communities.

My understanding of creation has been radically altered by the Secret Book of John. The Gospel of Thomas is radically addressing some of my Charismatic traditions.

Who would risk exploring these writings with me? Who is seeking to know the REAL Jesus? We are called to be immitators of Jesus. How can we do so when we do not know Him as He is because of the modified content we hold dear as the Word of God. Jesus continuously reminds us not to become caught up by the Logos. The Logos is mere ink on paper. It is dead. We must look for the Rhema. It is the Rhema which brings life.

The Essene Gospels of peace is just as much Logos as the Bible. There is much Rhema hidden here for us.

Peace be with you

Len

Len,
You say Jesus "Continuously reminds us"! Where???
Can you show us in Scripture where Jesus said don't get caught up in the LOGOS??? I would like to know! The Word declares directly through John that Jesus Himself IS the Logos. "In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself." John 1:1

Also God has Power over His Word as in the Old Testament story where a King of Israel destroyed the Word of the Lord in a Scroll. God sent His Prophet right back into the king with the same pronouncements plus more, because the king cast aside the Word of the Lord!

Hi Rose

Please understand this is not a challenge to those who are seeking, but to those who become complacant in their seeking.

I do believe in the Logos. ALL of the Logos, not just the scraps given to us by the Nicean Council. There is a LOT MORE to the Logos that we are told to believe.

In speaking to the religious leaders of His day Jesus said the following:

Mat 15:7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Mat 15:10 And He called the crowd and said to them, Hear and understand.
Mat 15:11 Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.
Mat 15:12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But He answered and said, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 15:15 Then Peter answered and said to Him, Explain this parable to us.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are you also still without understanding?

While Paul had the following to say:

2Co 3:2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 it having been made plain that you are the epistle of Christ, ministered by us, not having been written with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not on tablets of stone, but in fleshly tablets of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God,
2Co 3:5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory (so that the sons of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his face), which was being done away;
2Co 3:8 shall not the ministry of the Spirit be with more glory?

And Jesus said the following to us in Revelations 2-3:
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

My point is:

Let us try to get to the truths that has been hidden from us. We are admonished to live a Life in the Spirit (Rom 8).
My question is: Are we living this life? Most of humanity can not even hear the voice of the Spirit. Most of the Church of today cannot even hear the voice of the Spirit. Why? We do not know how to. Humanity won't read their Bibles anymore because it resembles a religion that is dead. Having the form but denying its power.

We are promised LIFE and ABUNDANCE and much more than we can imagine. Where did we lose it all? I am learning a secret about the lost mode of prayer. This mode of prayer was something Jesus taught and the early church walked in. It disappeared with the edits of the Nicean Council of the Bible.

God's Word is LIFE and is RHEMA and we are entitled to it.

Here is where John 1:1 originated from:

The Essene Gospel of Peace - Book 4:

And when the sun is high in the heavens, then shall you seek the Holy Stream of Sound. in the heat of noontide, all creatures are still and seek the shade; the angels of the Earthly Mother are silent for a space. Then it is that you shall let into your ears the Holy Stream of Sound; for it can only be heard in the silence. Think on the streams that are born in the desert after a sudden storm, and the roaring sound of the waters as they rush past. Truly, this is the voice of God, if you did but know it. For as it is written, in the beginning was the Sound, and the Sound was with God, and the Sound was God. I tell you truly, when we are born, we enter the world with the sound of God in our ears, even the singing of the vast chorus of the sky, and the holy chant of the stars in their fixed rounds; it is the Holy Stream of Sound that traverses the vault of stars and crosses the endless kingdom of the Heavenly Father. It is ever in our ears, so do we hear it not. Listen for it, then, in the silence of noontide; bathe in it, and let the rhythm of the music of God beat in your ears untfl you are one with the Holy Stream of Sound. It was this Sound which formed the earth and the world, and brought forth the mountains, and set the stars in their thrones of glory in the highest heavens.
And you shall bathe in the Stream of Sound, and the music of its waters shall flow over you; for in the beginning of the times so did we all share in the Holy Stream of Sound that gave birth to all creation. And the mighty roaring of the Stream of Sound will fill your whole body, and you will tremble before its might. Then breathe deeply of the angel of air, and become the sound itself, that the Holy Stream of Sound may carry you to the endless kingdom of the Heavenly Father, there where the rhythm of the world rises and falls.

I think those early years between the time of the crucifixion and the time of the first printing press were so interesting, personally. All those documents were hand written, hand copied, often by illiterate people since most people back then couldn't read or write. It's a miracle that so many survived to make it to the Bible as we know it today. (But then, God does specialize in miracles, doesn't He?) Some people feel the translations that made it to the era of Constantine did so because God specifically wanted those to survive. I think this is probably where Rose is coming from; correct me, please, if I'm wrong, Rose! I think there were lots of doctrinal disputes even during those early years, much like we have now. I'm personally interested in the other writings, from a historical perspective if nothing else. I would hope that reading them would broaden my perspective on things rather than negate anything already in the KJV. Thoughts, anybody?

I would like to say that any "Gospel" Except that which we have already received, which Paul himself refers to is no Gospel at all. I'm not trying to start a battle of words, But Paul said I would "KNOW" nothing but Christ and Him Crucified. "That is the Gospel", that God Himself came down in the flesh and died in our stead! He got what we deserve, and we get what He deserves!!!

Bathes and streams and sounds are not the Precious Blood of Jesus. Jesus said unless you eat My Body and drink my Blood you cannot be His!!! He was not talking chasing rainbows or heady stories, but exactly what it takes for us to come to Him. Len, none of the works or writings you mention have "ANY weight of authority and "NEVER" did. Although this is an open forum to discuss whatever we want, if the things we proclaim contradict the Scriptures or bring a Gospel not received beforehand, which Paul many times warns us to watch out for, calling them Heresies!!! I don't think those too strong of words, since Paul and Peter and "ALL of Scripture warn in the last days these Heresies will come!!! Satan himself shall "Appear as an angel of light, deceiving if possible even the Elect!!!"

I would be very careful telling Christians to seek out New Revelations, since the Bible clearly teaches that Christ was Crucified from the "Foundation" of the world. There is nothing new under the sun as the Bible itself declares, only inflated ego of man constantly looks, like Satan Himself did to rise above what God had said and constantly tries to get His people to question, "Did God really say!!!" Oldest line in "THE BOOK"! By now we should be on high alert for Satans tactics, they predate history as we know it. If he deceived even a third of the angels who stood in the Very Presence of God, how very careful Dear Brother should we be when we declare His Word as it exists unfit and assume we somehow know better than God Himself, as if He needed us to Hold His Word intact across the ages. It will stand forever, even into the Ages to come! Jesus said,"Heaven and earth will pass away, my Word shall "NEVER" pass away.

There is no hidden secret Len! The Bible says if "THIS" Gospel be hidden, it is hidden from those who are lost!


IN HIS LOVE,
ROSE

I feel that there are many secrets God has hidden from humanity. There are spiritual treasures that await us. When Jesus say "ask, seek and knock" the correct translation is "ask and keep asking, seek and keep seeking, knock and keep knocking".

And the last year that I have spend doing this has been the most rewarding of my life.

Isa 45:2 I will go before you, and make hills level. I will break in pieces the bronze gates, and cut the iron bars in two.
Isa 45:3 And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I am Jehovah, who calls you by your name, the God of Israel.
(CEV)
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

(KJV)


I did not stumble on this by accident or by impulse. This was by guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Even the Books of Enoch were considered scripture once, as were the other books of Moses. Suddenly someone from the Roman Empire decided that we should no longer read them.

Some of The Book of the Mysteries of God was quoted by a few of the Letters of Paul in the New Testament. This too was only reserved for study by the elect.

The Sophia (Wisdom) of Jesus Christ is a book that contains conversations between Jesus and His followers in which He shares more spiritual revelations with them.

Many of these books were even locked up inside the Vatican where they were only studied by a selected priesthood. it does not limit or take away what Jesus said, but it broadens our understanding of who Jesus is and what His message and purpose was about. It was not just for our sins but to redeem all of creation buckling under a curse. While the current Book of Genesis says God cursed man and the earth, I discovered it was not even God at all!

God does not curse! God is a loving and kind God, abounding in love and goodness. Why were we made to believe God is the one who cursed creation? Jesus ays explicitly that we should bless those who curse us. It is in His nature to bless and show goodness, and He reveals the nature of God to us. Why would well-meaning religious people keep God's Elect in such ignorance/darkness and make us believe that OUR GOD is the One who cursed us in the beginning of time?

This curse came from Satan (Yaltabaoth aka Samael/Saklas) according to the Secret Book of John. And this is why Jesus came to redeem us and all of creation from this curse.

I'm in agreement with both of you. I believe God's secrets are to be found in His Word (both written and living through the form of Jesus Christ). I also believe that the Holy Spirit is allowing more and more truth to be revealed about God's nature as time goes on. Look at how much more we know now about God and God's nature than the Israelites of old. Paul himself prayed that God would give us "the Spirit of wisdom and revelation so that we may know Him better" and that "the eyes of (our) heart may be enlightened inorder that (we) may know the hope to which (God) has called (us), the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, and His incomparably great power for us who believe." (Eph 1:17-19)

We only see things "dimly" now but with God's grace we continually grow and learn from the Word of God (both written and living).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Elaine,

Hi Elaine

I find it frustrating having to live with this "spiritual dullness". This scripture you just quoted is a scripture I have been praying daily for over a year now:
1) I ask for open eyes to see
2) open ears to hear
3) a spirit of wisdom and
4) a spirit of revelation

... so I can know Jesus more. Everyday when I walk to our station to get the train I listen to some worship music and talk with God and pray this. I am desperate for more of Jesus.

While I am currently going through the Nag Hammadi and other early christian writings, I also discover writings which I sense is not of God. The Holy Spirit is faithful to let me discern these. It is like I am going through a patch where God is showing me that which is of God and that which is NOT of God.

I am desperate to understand how to overcome this dullness of spirit. I am reading the Essene Gospels of Peace and find quite a bit where Jesus instructs on the issue of Fasting as a means to overcome this spiritual dullness. God promised me the keys to understanding this and overcoming this, just as Jesus did. I am following hard after Him for this promise.

The dilemma I face is that the mainstream Christian church is not doing the "stuff". We hold the form but deny the power...

We are called to do so much more. Where is the "Christ in you! The Hope of Glory" bit? I am no longer satisfied with just empty and dead form. I want the LIFE, I want to be God's hands, His feet and His voice to a people who so desperately need Him.

I am beginning to understand a little about a certain practise of prayer which was lost to the church for 17 centuries. I need first to implement it in my own life and test it before I can ascribe to it, or teach about it.

But thus far the journey is one of treading on unchartered territory, yet excitedly. I am treading carefully, as not to be blown about by every wind of doctrine that is thrown at me.

Peace be with you

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Len,

Len,
I'm wondering about the Essene Gospel, that you were talking about. Maybe I got something wrong, I wanted to ask you yesterday when noone had answered on here yet, but didn't find the time....
From what I had learnt about an "Essene Gospel" it is a fake, made up probably by some German philospher, it came up in the middle of the 19th century supposedly a translation from an originally latin draft. It's concern had been to take Jesus out of a Jewish context before the historical fiction of an aryanisation of the Essens, as it was popular in the 19th century (in 1849 it was "found")....this was used later in Nazi Germany as this made Jesus an Aryan and so Christianity was more compatible with the Antisemitism and the Nazidoctrine...(sick thoughts, I know).....
I am not sure if we are talking of the same "Essene Gospel" but I don't know of any other so I am just wondering.....maybe there is something different out there, that I don't know of....

I agree very much with when you said "ask and keep asking, seek and keep seeking, knock and keep knocking".And I also find it very interesting to "dig" in old scripture outside the canon of the bible....

Hi Julez

The Nag Hammadi Library was only discovered in 1945. These were found as many scrolls inside of a number of clay vessels.

2 years later the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered. The Nag Hammadi writings were unknown until then, and were not made public until a number of years later. Many of these writings were also found as duplicated in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea scrolls confirmed these writings.

I am treading carefully here because I know you cannot just pick up any book/writing and take it as Gospel. So read it with an open heart, asking the Holy Spirit to show you which is truth and which is not.

I am chewing hard on "A Perfect Mind/Thunder" as I cannot see this as something that can speak to me at this point. But the Essene Gospels of Peace, the Books of Enoch, Adam, and some of the books of the disciples are worth investigating. I am deeply touched by the Gospel of Thomas, and there is much I do not understand. At the same time the Lord revealed much to me over the last few months, and when I read this gospel, the revelation of the Holy Spirit was confirmed in the recorded words of Jesus in this book, with a powerful emphasis on "Before you were born I knew you...and loved you." ( Isa 43) This message stuck with me for a whole day burning in my heart, as I repeated it over and over and over. It has more meaning than just God being able to see the future. There are realms of eternity where we existed in God's presence before we were born. We come from His divine presence. And He knew us then already.

With recent discoveries in our understanding of quantum physics, I can begin to understand how this can be possible. In God there are infinite possibilities and all things are possible FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE..WOW! LET THAT STIR OUR FAITH!!

Len

Hi Len,
I am familiar with(well that is maybe exaggerated LOL.....) the Hag Hammadi Library, and with some books of it and I also know a little bit about the Qu`mran discoveries...and indeed I find it very interesting too......just don't really know about it's connection with the Essene Gospel....well I am trying to get some more information....and I see now, that I read some more about the Qumran discoveries, where you come from.....interesting indeed.....

Oh, I see...

The Essene Gospels of peace were all part of the same collection of scrolls that were discovered in 1945 near Nag Hammadi.

Copies of these were also found in the Dead Sea scrolls. There was also a wonderful copy of the book Isaiah, which was wonderfully preserved, and is about 1000 yrs older than the known earlier copies.

Peace

Len

Hi all

My thoughts are probably not worth much, but even today there are different versions of the Bible around, the 'Catholic' version, including the apocrypha, and the 'Protestant' version, without (this is how I undertand it - correct me if I'm wrong). Does anyone know how these came about? How there are extra books in some versions and not in others? (As she with the theology degree doesn't know....)

I know also that in AD71 when the council of Jerusalem met, they decided on the (first) canon (or structure) of scripture - what they wanted to put in and what to leave out. It was then 'edited' again at the Council of Nicea in 325 as Len says.
As far as I understand it, there were lots of scrolls/documents around at the time and decisions were made about what had more 'value'(the best word I can think of but probably not the most appropriate) than others.
A lot of the early councils of the church - in Jerusalem, Nicea, Constantinople and so on - debated what could be classed as scripture and what wasn't. I reckon we'd probably be quite surprised if we went back in time and saw all the documents around at the time and what happened to them!

I am looking forward to reading more about this in the coming weeks. I am a single mother who rarely gets time to read anything so, Len, I won't be joining you in this quest. But I would like to know more about these things. Thanks for sharing your journey with us...we'll all have a lot to think about.

I used to be quite impressed with the Nag Hammadi texts, also with the Qu'mran scrolls. I have books on both here in my study. But at this point I can't say that I see how relevant they are to us as practicing Christians. I can see how and why they would be important to scholars and theologians, esp. those involved with the study of comparative religion.

I've always believed there are kernels of truth in other religions' sacred scriptures. However, what makes me a Christian is striving to be a disciple of Jesus, modelled on what's been preserved and treasured through the canon of the Bible. I also find the Upanishads and the Q'uran quite beautiful and often uplifting, but I can't say that I ever considered becoming Hindu or Muslim on account of this ability of appreciate and respect other world's religions.

Len, A Perfect Mind/Thunder is a great example of Gnostic literature. Just be careful about it. Gnostic movement was (and I dare say, is) extremely heterodox and diverse. Popular culture has been bombarding us with this notion that all things Gnostic are the real Gospel, unpolluted by the Late Roman imperial political power struggles over the Church canon and doctrine. I hope I won't offend you or anyone else by saying this, but that is a naive, untrue and oversimplified notion.

For more insight on the impressive (but not quite Christian) world of Gnosticism, I heartily reccomend Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron:
I used to be quite impressed with the Nag Hammadi texts, also with the Qu'mran scrolls. I have books on both here in my study. But at this point I can't say that I see how relevant they are to us as practicing Christians. I can see how and why they would be important to scholars and theologians, esp. those involved with the study of comparative religion.

I've always believed there are kernels of truth in other religions' sacred scriptures. However, what makes me a Christian is striving to be a disciple of Jesus, modelled on what's been preserved and treasured through the canon of the Bible. I also find the Upanishads and the Q'uran quite beautiful and often uplifting, but I can't say that I ever considered becoming Hindu or Muslim on account of this ability of appreciate and respect other world's religions.

Len, A Perfect Mind/Thunder is a great example of Gnostic literature. Just be careful about it. Gnostic movement was (and I dare say, is) extremely heterodox and diverse. Popular culture has been bombarding us with this notion that all things Gnostic are the real Gospel, unpolluted by the Late Roman imperial political power struggles over the Church canon and doctrine. I hope I won't offend you or anyone else by saying this, but that is a naive, untrue and oversimplified notion.

For more insight on the impressive (but not quite Christian) world of Gnosticism, I heartily reccomend Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels.

Well said Aaron.

Katie

Yes Aaron, I saw that one and found my spirit definitely clashed with it. It was dodgy with a capital D...



I am growing to like the Essene Gospels of Peace, the Secret book of John, the Gospel of Thomas, some of the "secret sayings of Jesus" stuff, and enjoyed the Gospel of the Holy 12, which was considered lost forever and then rediscovered. I could clearly see how the gospels in the Bible differ from this one.

Something as simple as the Lord's Prayer...so much goes missing in the translation...

Lords Prayer Translated from Aramaic
A Translation of "Our Father" directly from Aramaic into English

O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration. Soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can abide.

Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission.

Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire.

Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to grow and flourish.

Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release others from the entanglement of past mistakes.

Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment.

For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth, power and fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.

Amen

With more translations here:

http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

This gives quite a fresh perspective.

Len

I absolutely love this version of the Lord's Prayer...(From the original Aramaic into English)

Abwûn O cosmic Birther, from whom the breath of life comes,
d'bwaschmâja who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
Nethkâdasch schmach May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Têtê malkuthach. Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha. Let Your will come true in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna. Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,
Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên. detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Wela tachlân l'nesjuna Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),
ela patzân min bischa. but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.
Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn. From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
Amên. Sealed in trust, faith and truth. (I confirm with my entire being)

Here is something here that reveals a secret.

Does anyone know anything about Quantum Physics?

Then you will understand that our scientists today who study it regard all matter as vibrations of light and sound. In their study of the cosmos, this prayer begins to make sense.

The cosmic realm acording to those who study Quantum Physics exist of many realms, those that are seen and unseen, in other dimensions. I admit I am not a scientist but some truly startling scientific discoveries in this area is beginning to agree with some of the teachings of Jesus, seen in a cosmic scale....

What Jesus (and the Essene communities) knew all along is now being discovered by those studying Quantum Physics.

Is this amazing or what?

Len

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Len,

I'm somewhat surprised that you found Elaine Pagel's book dodgy. It's usually the more orthodox Christians who criticize it on various accounts. I found it a fairly and honestly written book, cautioning against fundamentalism of any kind and calling for greater understanding of the complex processes that led to what we now know as Christianity. It's a solid scholarly work.

Would you mind if I asked what in particular did you find dodgy about it?

Oops...sorry Aaron,
I was referring to Thunder/A perfect mind.

I have not read Elaine Pagels' book yet. I will look out for it though. Thanks for the referral.

I am currently digesting a book by Greg Braden = "The Isaiah Effect". I am finding so much in there, mostly stuff I feel the Holy Spirit has been speaking to me about all along, but now looking at it in the way he ties it together, brings new meaning to it. Its a truly powerful book.

Peace to you

Len