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| <Doctor Theo>
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The fact is that it is a physical impossibility that the
Bible says one word about homosexuality. They had no words for nor a concept of homosexuality at the time the Bible was written. Therefore there cannot be a sin of homosexuality, period. The Bible does not allude to, or reference to homosexuality nor a homosexual act. In every case the sin is idolatry, in the sexual religious ritual to Baal-Molech or other fertility gods. The way one prayed to a fertility god was to have sex to them. And since Chemarim priests were only males the ones you had sex with were males. In Lev 18:22 they did not give the honor of the title Chemarim (kamar) they simple called them (zakar) a man or mankind, and this is where the modern day confusion has come from to invent a sin of homosexuality. This sin did not exist until the invention of homosexuality itself, first in 1862, but not popularized until 1892. No where can you find in context an author talking about a homosexual act, that is not actually talking about a non-procreative act or an act of ilodatry before 1868. Matthew Henry (1706) has been mistranslated to say homosexuality is the result of idolatry, when he never said that. Heterosexual males had sex with heterosexual males for the sole purpose of giving seed to the fertility god Baal-Molech. Sperm was seen as the giver of life, as is rain, and the sexual act was to entice Baal-Molech to have sex with his wife Asherah (mistranslated, the grove in the Bible). If Baal_Molech had sex with his wife this would bestow fertility on the land, animals and people. Here is how this article should read. Feel free to use it. Is Homosexuality a Sin? No, It is a physical impossibility that the Bible says one word about homosexuality or mentions an act of homosexuality, because they had no words for nor a concept of homosexuality at the time the bible was written. For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see J. Katz, The Invention of Heterosexuality (1995), or: Legal history http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html Medical history http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm Let's go through this step by step. Most christians take for granted there is a sin of homosexuality in the bible. They whip out the same out of context verses to prove their mythal sin of homosexuality, when in fact it is the act of idolatry, using your body which is the temple of God against God, to give or receive the seed to the fertility gods as Baal-Molech and Venus. With a mixing of the rites to Bacchus by Paul in the new Testament. I am sure some of you are aware of certain words that help make this case that there is no sin of homosexuality in the bible, but is in fact the sin of idolatry as, Sodomite (qadesh) which means a male temple prostitute. Fornication (zanah) harlot, go a whoring, whoredom. Fornication (ekporneuo) to go a whoring. Abusers of themselves with mankind (arsenokoite) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, (qadesh) male temple prostitute. Effeminate (malakos) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness, of a male prostitute. A high place (ramah) a place of illicit worship. Of course none of these point toward homosexuality, but toward the fertility rites of giving or receiving seed to gods as Baal-Molech to entice him to have sex with his wife (Ashtaroth Judges 2:13) to bestow fertility upon the land, animals and people. Of course then in context Leviticus 18 and 20 are Lev 18:21-24, Lev 20:2-5, 13, 15, 16 as crime an punishment. Baal-Molech are generally overlooked in this context. When one tries to point this out to the average Christian they just say well Levticus 18 is a list of sexual perversions you are told not to do and Molech is just one more thing. When one takes into account that women and children were property then Leviticus 18 takes on the meaning of property rights, the rights of the father as owner of the women and children or the husband who gains ownership when he marries the woman Deu 22:28-30. With also at Lev 18:19, 21-23 are the warning against spilling the seed (God's property) in unclean and idolatrous acts. Most Christians will say homosexuality is the act of fornication which is impossible if you point out that Jesus said A wife can put away a wife for fornication: Matthew 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his "wife", saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." Now if fornication was having sex outside of marriage, instead of the idolatrous act of having sex for the purpose of worshiping other gods, then Jesus would not be talking about putting away a "wife" for the cause of fornication. If it were a "wife" having sex in the modern sense of the words, it would be adultery, not fornication, yet both words are used in the same context, clearly a "wife" can commit fornication and the modern usage of the word is mistranslated. And of course they always bring up Sodom and Gomorrah, which can easily be shown in Judges 19:22, 20:4-5 to not have anything to do with homosexuality but of wanting to "know them" to see if they were spies as in: Numbers 21:1-2, 2 Samuel 10:3. And Sodom was destroyed for Baal worship Jeremiah 23:13-14 and inhospitality Eze 16:49-50, and there was not even 10 people that believed in God on Sodom Gen 18:32. The Chemarim priests can be linked to Baal-Molech through: 2 Kings 23:4-5,7, (Hosea 10:5 and Zephaniah 1:4 and the fact that Chemarim priests are called Sodomites 2 Kings 23:5,7 indirectly links them back to Sodom's Baal worship). Baal-Molech can both be connected to the passing seed through fire by Lev 18:21 and 2 Kings 17:16-17 (which was probably like a hot baptism in good times and actual burning of children in bad times, as at the temple at Amman (1400-1250 B.C.) reported by J.B. Hennessey, Palestine Exploration Quarterly (1966)) Baal-Molech can be connected to temple prostitution through Ezekiel 16:21-25 in high place (ramah) a place of illicit worship, a whore house, so that we now have Chemarim priests connected to Baal-Molech, 2 Kings 23:4-5,7 passing through fire connected to Baal and Molech Lev 18:21 and 2 Kings 17:16-17 and temple prostitution in connection with passing through fire referenced in Ezekiel 16:21-25. Thus provides context for Lev 18:21-24. Ezek 16: 21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? ... 24 That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street. Adam Clarke's Commentary Ezek 16: Verse 24. Thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place a stew or brothel, a bordel house. "Thou hast builded thy stewes and bordell houses in every place."- Coverdale's Bible, 1636. Bordel is an Italian word: how it got so early into our language I know not. Our modern word brothel is a corruption of it. Diodati translates, Tu hai edificato un bordello, "Thou hast built a brothel." Houses of this kind were of a very ancient date. Matthew Henry Commentary Ezekiel 16:15-34 They built temples in honour of their idols, that others might be invited to resort thither and join with them in the worship of their idols: "After all thy wickedness of this kind committed in private, for which, woe, woe, unto thee" (that comes in a sad parenthesis, denoting those to be in a woeful condition who are going on in sin, and giving them warning in time, if they would but take it), "thou hast at length arrived at such a pitch of impudence as to proclaim it; thou hast long had a whore's heart, but now thou hast come to have a whore's forehead, and canst not blush," v. 23-35. Thou hast built there an eminent place, a brothel-house (so the margin reads it), and such their idol temples were. Thou hast made for thyself a high place, for one idol or other, in every street, and at every head of the way; and again v. 31. They did all they could to seduce and debauch others, and to spread the contagion, by making the temptations to idolatry as strong as possibly they could; and hereby the ringleaders in idolatry did but make themselves vile, and even those that had courted them to it, finding themselves outdone by them, began to be surfeited with the abundance and violence of their idolatries: Thou hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, even by those that had admired it. Now keeping this in mind that the worship of Baal-Molech were accompanied by temple prostitution in the act of prayer to the fertility gods, to give seed in the prayer, in order to be bestowed with fertility themselves, let's look at Leviticus 18 and 20 in this light. Leviticus 20: 2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. ... 5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people. Adam Clarke's Commentary Ezekiel 16:24. Thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place a stew or brothel Leviticus 18: 21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. (give no seed to Molech) Even more clear is the context in the Septuagint Greek: Lev 18: 21 And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I [am] the Lord. 'Do not dedicate any of your seed or offspring to Molech.' 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.(give no seed to male Chemarim priests to Molech) 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.(give no seed to the beast Molech) 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: (Give no seed to Molech it does not build the nation it defiles the nation, it is idolatry, a ritual abomination.) Lev 20: 3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name. One can see that this is not the act of homosexuality, the mere spilling of the seed, it is much worse, it is idolatry. Using the temple of God against God to worship Molech, by giving or receiving the seed to Molech. It is a mortal sin, it is treason. They were receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was met. The dots have been connected for Leviticus 18 and 20 and the picture is not that of homosexuality but of idolatry. The people were no more homosexual in the worship of Baal-Molech than today's Christians are cannibals for drinking the blood and eating the body of Christ. Both are performing a religious duty, not an act of cannibalism or homosexuality. One must separate the sexual act from the sexual orientation, as one must separate the act of drinking the blood and eating the body of Christ from cannibalism. The notion that this was an act of homosexuality is a cultural accretion built up over the years and has so covered the original picture that it can no longer be seen. Before we get into the New Testament you should be reminded the rights to Bacchus. The festivals began to be held under cover of darkness five times a month. All emotional and sexual restraints were thrown off, and the only law was, that all the laws of ordinary life should be transgressed. The Bacchic rites, in which all, helped to encourage or cover up for other kinds of crime, such as murder, false witness, and the forgery of wills and similar documents. The men, raving, incoherent, scarcely in control of their limbs, devoted themselves to the initiates, young men under twenty whom they "forcibly debauched." In this highly charged, orgiastic atmosphere, murder was the natural sequel for any initiate who struggled against his fate. One needs to keep this in mind when they enter the New Testament, along with the prostitution to Venus and still Baal. We now need to place Paul at the scene as witness to this to this case. As you know Paul lived in Corinth (Acts 18:1) Acts 18:11 "And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. Corinth was a notorious city of temple prostitution, its wealth was so celebrated to be legendary, so were the sexual activity in their religious worship. Paul saw this around him as he live and breathed Corinth. Paul knew of the rites to Bacchus, the prostitution to Venus and still to a smaller extent the rites to Baal. Where Paul said in: Romans 11:4 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Understanding this context it make it very easy to understand what Paul was writing about in: 1 Corinthians 6: 8 "Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Obviously the main theme is that of using your body which is the temple of God against God to give and receive the seed in the worship of other gods, with a bit of Bacchus rites thrown in as well. Now let's review the words used and their meanings in: 1 Cor 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators (pornos), ( a male prostitute (zanah) go a whoring, (ekporneuo) to go a whoring) nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (malakos), (of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness, of a male prostitute) nor abusers of themselves with mankind (arsenokoites), one who lies with a male as with a female, with a sodomite, (qadesh) male temple prostitute. With this in mind, let's rephrase 1 Cor 6:9: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither those that go a whoring, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those males who submit their bodies to unnatural lewdness as a male prostitute, nor those that lay with a male temple prostitute as with a female, 10 Nor those that worship Bacchus shall inherit the kingdom of God. Which shows the modern interpretation of homosexuality is an incorrect interpretation. When put into context 1 Cor 6:8-20, has nothing to do with homosexuality it is using your body which is the temple of God against God by giving or receiving the seed to other gods. Once we understand this, then the Epistle of Romans becomes clear as well. Romans was written in Corinth where Paul had come back to Corinth again for a three month stay where he wrote the Epistle to the Romans. (Paul wrote Romans because he wanted to go to Rome but was bound for Jerusalem, so meanwhile Paul dictated the letter to the Romans to Tertius who took credit for actually writing Romans (Rom 16:22), to be read in the Roman church.) In the knowledge that Romans was written in Corinth as well as what Paul had said to the Corinthians, to not use your body against God by giving or receiving the seed to other Gods, the verses in Romans become clear. Romans 1: 22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" Both the women and the men both were "receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet." Both the men and the women were using their bodies, which is the temple of God against God, to give and receive the seed to these false gods. It is still unclear, beyond bigotry, why in fact this cultural accretion has been heaped upon these verses, to coat them with the accretion of a sin of homosexuality, but the deeper one gets into it, the more evidence there is that it is the sin is of idolatry not homosexuality. One must separate the sexual acts, from the sexual orientation. The act of idolatry from the act of the sexual orientation, to bring the original meaning back to that of idolatry, not of homosexuality. (It would be redundant to go over 1 Timothy 8-11 because one would find the same explanation.) It is hoped the truth can come out so that intersexuals and homosexuals can live their lives without this injustice place upon them from just who they are, that they are in some way an abomination. It becomes abundantly clear if one keeps an open mind that the facts lead one to the sin of idolatry not to homosexuality in every case that is assigned to homosexuality. |
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| <Doctor Theo>
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DOC THEO Reply
Quote by Doc Theo: [Most Christians will say homosexuality is the act of fornication which is impossible if you point out that Jesus said [[A wife can put away a wife for fornication: Matthew 5:32 ] This is an obvious misquoting of the Scriptures!]
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| <Rose>
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Rose
Member Posted April 13, 2006 08:09 PM Rose Member Since I see that you are posting the same information on all different threads. I will repost my responses to you for your benefit Doc. Posted April 13, 2006 07:28 PM Doc Theo: Quote: It is a lie that marriage has only been between a man and a woman. In fact until very recent times marriage was between any two or more people for love or the exchange of property. The church preformed same sex marriages up until the 19th century. [David married Jonathan in the Bible], Here's an obvious twisting of the Scriptures! Nowhere does it say David was married to Jonathan!!! (ROSE) Doc Theo: quote: and those as St. Serge married St. Baachus, the Byzantine Emperor Basil I (867-886) married his companion John. Legal references to marriages of two males, that still exist, occur as early as the 4th, 5th, and 6th centuries. Montaigne saw it performed in Rome in his lifetime. Venetian ambassadors to Rome in the 17th and 18th centuries wrote of the same sex marriage practice. If someone says God said marriage is only between a man woman then brings up: [quote]The word and concept of homosexuality was not invented until the late 19th century, therefore it is a physical impossibility that there is a sin of homosexuality in the Bible. They had no words for nor a concept of homosexuality at the time the Bible was written. Please read these two statements to yourself over and over Doc until you are sure of your own contradictions!!! Doc, you are beginning to make me laugh for your continual contradictions in every one of your posts. Not wanting to offend you, but as I keep reading everything you are saying Scripture after Scripture comes to mind that taken as a whole and interpreting Scripture by the Scriptures shows you are way out in left field. the Bible and Christianity isn't a Democracy, it is God's Love letter and Instructions and Laws that He chooses and He gives. When it says He sits in the Heavens and laughs, I know it is because men believe themselves wiser than He. Above you say homosexuality is a concept unknown until the late 19th century and in the next breath you claim David and Jonathan were married, (Not as in two gay men though, Right???) It was some other kind of married other than homosexual relationship. Remember you said they had no words or concept at the time the Bible was written. Again I will disagree that homosexuality and lesbianism were unknown or not practiced since the beginning of time. You say it was unknown till the late 19th century, but there are examples throughout history of same sex lovers or partners even from the time of the early Christian martyrs. Just looking at one of the books on my shelf (Surpassing The Love Of Men) by Lillian Faderman, She starts with lesbians in the 16th century and works her way up to the twentieth century. It's only 496 pages, and a quick read. You will see that you are badly mistaken and often just by this historical documentation alone. It is not even Biblical and disproves much of what you claim. Perhaps not many people are well read either in Scripture or the history of gay relationships, spanning back the centuries and quite known to people other than those in the relationships themselves. So what if they didn't refer to it as gay, and so what if it wasn't called homosexuality. Boston Marriages have been well known for quite some time. All your information that you've laid down is a twisting of Scriptures and taken WAY out of context. I have a question, and I wonder if you are Born Again and you claim Jesus as the Lord of Your life? It's Wonderful that you are a Professor, So was my father(Latin, Greek, and History) at a Catholic seminary! My other statement is, why would anyone care who an XXY Hermaphrodite can legally marry? They might themselves have this concern, but the answer will neither Save you or bring you closer to the Father, so I would say it has pretty low priority on many peoples lists! Doc, you may really be a Professor somewhere, but head knowledge will never pass the muster before Jesus at Judgement day. This isn't a political site, this is a Christian site where we lift up Jesus and follow Him, not the worlds ideas about the Truth! And this isn't a test that will be graded on a curve. How easily you try to explain away sin and Obedience to God, making sin, not seem like sin at all, but a lesson in history. What was sin in times past is sin today no matter how smart we think we have grown as a society or as individuals. The Scriptures teach that in times past God winked at our rebellion and sin, but is now calling all men to repentance and to Believe on His Son, Jesus. What He tolerated in times past He isn't tolerating anymore because He came personally not only to Save, but to open peoples eyes that are blind so they have no excuse. HIS GRACE AND KNOWLEDGE,(AND PEACE) ROSE PSALM 89 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. God's Word is like a parachute that He gives each one of us. It will only Save us if we put it on, it isn't enough just to own one! IT'S A LOVE THAT NEVER ENDS TRET FURE Posts: 1788 | Location: Prairie Du Chien,Wisconsin USA | Registered: September 26, 2002 Rose Member Posted April 13, 2006 07:45 PM DOC THEO: quote: If marriage is only between a man and a woman, why did God tell Hagar, Abaham's second wife, to go back to Sarah, his first wife, to submit to her, that if she did so he would multiply her seed without number (Gen 16:1-10). This is a direct endorsement of polygamy by God. Anyone who says marriage is only between a man and a woman have no Biblical basis to base this statement upon. Some will then say well Jesus also said the same thing, and take the verse (Mat 19:5) out of context. The context is divorce and that Moses said it was ok to divorce, and Jesus said except for the sexual worship of another god (fornication) there is no excuse for divorce. In other words only idolatry, which was treason, was an excuse for a divorce. 1 Cor 6 says about temple prostitution (which is the context of 1 Cor 6): Here again you show your true knowledge of the Scriptures is limited to History only and not the guiding of the Holy Spirit! ROMANS 4 15 For the Law results in [Divine] wrath, but where there is no Law there is no Transgression [of it either]. God never endorsed polygamy, but tolerated for a time the acts of men until Moses and the Law. The Law being given so man would recognize his need for God, that he was both sinful and in need of Salvation; that Salvation being brought to us in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. DOC THEO: [QUOTE] The context is divorce and that Moses said it was ok to divorce, and Jesus said [except for the sexual worship of another god ] {taken way out of context}(ROSE) (fornication) there is no excuse for divorce. In other words only idolatry, which was treason, was an excuse for a divorce. 1 Cor 6 says about temple prostitution (which is the context of 1 Cor 6): Here again you have taken total liberty with the Scriptures and twisted them to say what you yourself believe. ROSE PSALM 89 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. God's Word is like a parachute that He gives each one of us. It will only Save us if we put it on, it isn't enough just to own one! IT'S A LOVE THAT NEVER ENDS TRET FURE Posts: 1789 | Location: Prairie Du Chien,Wisconsin USA | Registered: September 26, 2002 This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Rose>, |
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DOC THEO: Well as special as that might be, as in, well isn't that special (the Church Lady), Dear Rose ( THE CHURCH LADY ) That’s Gaychurch Lady if you please… Hope that this will encourage you to continue sharpening your pencil… keep writing, heresy by any other name is an ugly thing!!! A word in due season…. “Be careful that you don't lose perspective or meaning in what I have called you to. Refuse to allow the enemy to distract you from that which is eternally significant in your life, and do not depart from the faith that is so vital to the expression of truth. Now is a critical time when you must encourage yourself in the Lord and strengthen your resolve to persist. It is so easy to decide to quit, but giving up will not yield the fruit of faithfulness. Avoid making decisions based on feelings rather than on the direction of My Spirit, says the Lord.” Galatians 5:19-23 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissentions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self–control. Against such there is no law. Galatians 5:19-23 KJV Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. From Strongs…… heresies 139 // airesiv // hairesis // hah'-ee-res-is // from 138 ; TDNT - 1:180,27; n f AV - sect 5, heresy 4; 9 1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city 2) choosing, choice 3) that which is chosen 4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party) 4a) of the Sadducees 4b) of the Pharisees 4c) of the Christians 5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims In an e-mail to me today March 29, 2007, Rose says: Elaine, Before you boot me off the boards, let the Saints decide themselves if what I'm saying isn't True! Trying to sweep under the carpet what Jesus said to shout from the housetops can't be done, not even by you! Ichabod!!! Wanderer, I am referring pretty clearly to both websites (There are so many out there today, pick one to suit yourself) which declare that Scripture is wrong and somehow over the last few thousand years we have not known what homosexuality is; that the gay man (or woman) of today is somehow not the same as same sex relationships and or attractions of the past. That all this has somehow taken God by surprise; that He never knew gay was coming. Scripture is being redefined before our eyes and those wanting confirmation that all is well in their behavior are lauding any and all that would change the accepted meaning of the Bible since it first began to be written down by scribes. I would include those websites that mock Christians or denominations or beliefs that the Saints hold dear. Somehow after giving up His only Son on our behalf for separation and death on a cross, I don't believe God is amused in the least. I know I'm not. I'm finding it more important to find out what it is Jesus as Lord is doing to bring Salvation to a dying world than our personal journeys to happiness. Jesus said we would have Tribulation in the world, but it doesn't fit in with this new paradigm shift the world has gone through and especially the gay world. What do we have to do with the world anyway? We are the called out ones. I'm saying that there is no instruction or command from God in the Old Testament or New concerning same sex relationships except in the negative sense, that's pretty clear. All the redefining of the clobber passages doesn't cut the mustard as far explaining away what we all see as something we wish to pursue or have in our lives, that being marriages or partnerships that we structure or just plain sexual gratification. But we can't very well feel comfortable and believing the Word of God at the same time, lest it contradict our wishes to live life as we choose. No doubt there are many gay people the world over, some practicing, some celibate as far as the Kingdom of God goes. I do not try to re-write the Scriptures in order to JUSTIFY who and what I am or what I do in order to feel ok about being gay. I am fully out in my community and have some support and others who speak negatively behind the scenes. I am aware of both. What I have a real problem with is, if gay people thought their relationships were really ok they wouldn't hide them or lie about who they are. Scripture teaches us, who would hurt you if you are doing what is right, and if we do find ourselves suffering for doing right, so did Jesus before us.(The Bible is pretty specific about anyone who practices or makes a lie not coming into God's Kingdom ever). This statement includes Paul's writings declaring that these deeds are done in darkness and do not bear the scrutiny of the Light of God's Word. There is a lot of deception practiced in the name of being gay, including the all too common cheating on spouses, (gay or straight) in order to be happy!!! What about the family that is broken to pieces in order to buy our happiness? Anyone here think that Jesus would give His seal of approval on that kind of behavior? But day after day we do here. We tell people we will pray for them, many of us hoping that we can put the husband or wife away with as little trouble to ourselves as possible, (While wanting to retain support and fellowship from others, including the Christian community) or blaming the other spouse for our bad choices and not understanding that they are standing in the way of our affair or future with someone new. (Can't we all just get along)? If this behavior was going on in the church I attend, you can bet I would stand up and say something, even as Paul was bold and led by the Spirit to do. Like I have noted before, if our spouse was a woman, instead of a man, how would that leave us off the hook as far as adultery is concerned? Then it truly becomes more clear exactly what it is we are doing and approving. In my humble opinion, It seems as though Here we tell people to pull up a chair, have a cuppa joe and fellowship in our support of sin, that being all sins that are practiced in order to be ok with ourselves and live the gay life. "THAT" God never called us to do. I'm not talking about being gay itself, I'm talking about everything we do that is ungodly in order to make sure we ourselves are happy. We are so caught up in relationships and our own plans that we have no time for Jesus here or at home. Some do, but are being led astray by those who give their approval of adultery in favor of being self-fulfilled. How many here have said they used to believe the Bible and went to church regularly, but have cast it aside as past ignorance? When's the last time you read a thread here about anything concerning Jesus, the Kingdom of God or what He is doing in the world through the move of His Holy Spirit. I don't see Holiness or love promoted or practiced very much in the gay christian community and I say to myself this is not a move of God in us but a support group so we can all feel ok about how we live. Gay seems to be the idol here and not Jesus as Lord. I suspect in the Millennium we won't see or hear the term gay and if marriage is not going to be for Heaven, why in God's name do people pursue it here as if it is the end all and be all in life? I have no problem at all with my gayness, Blyth, or anyone else's. I'm not looking to be straight, what I tremble at in this "church" is the fact that so many are comfortable with casting aside the Bible and pursuing adultery and sexual exploration with new lovers or giving approval to those that do. That is no church of Jesus Christ!!! He said, "Feed My lambs and sheep". What are we feeding them here? And Elaine, Your quote: I'm sorry Rose that you've slipped off to an ultra conservative point of view and one that seeks to condemn. It's quite easy to label someone ultra conservative when trying to defend one's position if the one challenging doesn't agree. I'm seeking to condemn no one, but to bring the light of the Gospel back to the forefront. When Paul challenged Peter to his face, Peter didn't kick Paul out of the church, but gave heed to the Holy Spirit, speaking thru Paul. Isn't this your heading for this topic? This area is to talk about spiritual issues, share experiences and an opportunity to articulate what we believe and why. Remember we are a 'many membered Body' (1 Cor 12:12-14) but we are one in Christ (Romans 12:4-5; Gal 3:26-28). I guess that's only true if we agree with you!!! I believe there are many that have gone off into the ditch and still don't know it. Is it a wonder that time after time we come with prayer requests because our lives are in shambles, then act as if we are ignorant of why it is happening to us! There is going to be a Great shaking coming, both to the straight church and gay. All those not holding tight will be shaken loose because they failed to see, hear, and prepare. ROSE P.S. Ingrid, you are a Dear Sister and I pray for you often. Katie 42 This message has been edited. Last edited by: Katie42, Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." |
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| <Doctor Theo>
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Posted April 13, 2006 07:28 PM Doc Theo: Quote: It is a lie that marriage has only been between a man and a woman.
No, I am calling the modern bias mistranslations, misinterpretations a lie. Jesus never said marriage was exclusively only between a man and a woman. That is a misinterpretation of the subject of divorce. The subject was Moses saying it was ok to give a bill of divorce, a quit claim, because women and children were property. It was not until 1215 that heterosexual marriage was officially declared a sacrament by the Roman Catholic Church, and consent was recognized as a necessary component of the union. Before that (The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 A.D.) women were merely property and marriage nothing more than a bill of sales. And since you seem unable to take what I say in context as a body, and you break every sentence into a universe of its own, it is no wonder you think there are many contradictions. It is a unlikely, as you claim, that you in fact take the scriptures as a whole, you can't even make it through a paragraph. I'm sure others want the facts not your condemnations, here say, and the conservative party line on homosexuality. ---- In fact until very recent times marriage was between any two or more people for love or the exchange of property. The church preformed same sex marriages up until the 19th century. [David married Jonathan in the Bible],
Hey, you can believe whatever conservative party line you wish, the fact is the original hebrew says David married twice that day. Saul had two daughter heirs, and two son heirs, and Merab married Adriel, leaving only Michal and two sons left to marry for the second time. David said himself: 2 Samuel 1: 26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. Ok let's get into some exegesis analysis of the words. 1 Samuel 18: 21 And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be upon him. And Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law a second time. -Darby Hebrew: Sha'uwl 'amar nathan mowqesh yad P'lishtiy Sha'uwl 'amar David yowm chathan sh'nayim The last two words in Darby is tranlsted as: "be my son-in-law a second time". In the KJV they threw in the words [the one of] to change the meaning, they translated the two last words as: "Thou shalt this day (yowm) be my son in law (chathan) in [the one of] the twain (sh'nayim)". Modern interpretation of this has twisted it to mean David was betrothed twice. The words used do not support that. They did not say 'aras (betrothed) sh'nayim (twice), they said chathan (marriages) sh'nayim (twice) married twice. Sh'nayim is the plural of marriage. The KJV added the words [the one of] to keep the marriage from being a polygamous, more correct a polyandrous marriage. Also there is other verse in the Bible that confirm the marriage between David and Jonathan: The Marriage contract of David and Jonathan 2 Samuel 21: 7 But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan the son of Saul, because of the LORD'S oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. Psa 133: 1 A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Doc Theo: quote: and those as St. Serge married St. Baachus, the Byzantine Emperor Basil I (867-886) married his companion John. Legal references to marriages of two males, that still exist, occur as early as the 4th, 5th, and 6th centuries. Montaigne saw it performed in Rome in his lifetime. Venetian ambassadors to Rome in the 17th and 18th centuries wrote of the same sex marriage practice. If someone says God said marriage is only between a man woman then brings up:
The contradition is in your mind, you cannot separate the two units of marriage and and the concept of homosexuality. At the time the Bible was written a man must marry a woman by law and by custom, like it or not. Therefore there was nothing to base the concept of a person exclusively attracted to the same sex upon, a homosexual. No inference, suggestion, knowledge, or statement can be pointed at homosexuality, because they had no such concept at the time the Bible was written. David married Jonathan who he loved, and Michal because he had to. David was a heterosexual who fancied a male in their minds, not a homosexual. As the Archbishop of Perth said: "..the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago. Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. ... The Bible knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. ... Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled that concept." By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
David also married Michal, that is not a homosexual. There was nothing to base the concept of a person exclusively attracted to the same sex upon.
And they had wives sitting at home taking care of their children. And again you cannot separate the units of the concept of homosexuality and homosexuals. There were homosexuals, there was not a concept of homosexuality. A man must marry a woman like it or not, the concept did not exist. It is like saying because people drew circles they had a concept of the zero, or because they thought the sun went around the earth they had a concept of the General Theory of Relativity. In the absence of the concept a circle is a circle. Men had sex with Chemarim priest to shoot sperm into the priest as a portal to the god Baal-Molech, that was not a homosexual act, it was a religious act, and is why the word tow'ebah (abomination) is used in Lev 18:22. Tow'ebah is a religious ritual abomination, two homosexuals having sex is not a religious ritual.
And Prof. John Boswell fell into this trap as well, it is called projection, and is what you are doing. You are projecting a modern concept upon a time and people who did not have any concept, therefore any words for homosexuality. What they are refering to as homosexuals is non-procreative sex, which applied to both sexes. Anything beyond that is delusion on their parts. Just because two women are having sex does not mean they nor anyone else had a concept of a homosexual. The two units are mutually exclusive. Surpassing the Love of Men : Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present by Lillian Faderman was written in 1981. Knowledge is not stagnant, this is out of date.
Conservative often see facts and truth to be a twist on what they want the Bible to say.
So let's see, God makes everything, therefore XXY Hermaphrodites, anyone they would marry or have sex with would be the same sex, because they have both sexes. And you are saying homosexuality is a sin therefore God creates sin, because God created XXY Hermaphrodites. And Jesus said intersexuals "eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb" could marry if they could do so for life. Mat 19:12 Again the context is divorce, not the numerical number of people in the marriage, there was only two people on earth at the time in Gen 2:24, and just two chapter on the father of Noah, the first savor of the earth, has two wives: Gen 4: 19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Tranlation: If you don't follow the conservative party line and believe the mistranslations I do, you are going to hell. Facts and truth are facts and truth no matter how many believe to the contrary. Everyone at one time belived the earth was flat and the sun went around the earth, and everyone was wrong.
So Rose, was slavery always OK: Pope Paul III, confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment. Was being a black and marring a black always a sin? Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967) Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix. It seems concervatives make the Bible suit their in vogue sin for the times and take verses out of context to "use" the Bible as a weapon of mass destruction against those in vogue group they hate. As: Song 1: 6 Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept. To justify slavery of blacks.
Posted April 13, 2006 07:45 PM DOC THEO: quote: If marriage is only between a man and a woman, why did God tell Hagar, Abaham's second wife, to go back to Sarah, his first wife, to submit to her, that if she did so he would multiply her seed without number (Gen 16:1-10). This is a direct endorsement of polygamy by God. Anyone who says marriage is only between a man and a woman have no Biblical basis to base this statement upon. Some will then say well Jesus also said the same thing, and take the verse (Mat 19:5) out of context. The context is divorce and that Moses said it was ok to divorce, and Jesus said except for the sexual worship of another god (fornication) there is no excuse for divorce. In other words only idolatry, which was treason, was an excuse for a divorce. 1 Cor 6 says about temple prostitution (which is the context of 1 Cor 6):
Translation: Put your hands in the air like antennas and just make this stuff up as you go along, and ignore the facts, history and the truth. Of course my knowledge of the Scriptures is limited to History and the facts. All else is delusion.
Really, funny then that the very people that the entire world and nations were entrusted into had the lineage of polygamy and polyandry. The father of Noah, who God entrusted the whole world in, had two wives, in other words Noah had two mothers, Abraham the father of the hebrew nation had three wives, and God personally sent Hagar the second wife back to Sarah his first wife to to submit to her. Sounds like an endorsment of polygamy to me. And then Jesus himself came from the lineage of David who married Jonathan and Michal. DOC THEO:
Yeah, unlike your chop and paste job to make pertext out of context. Jesus clearly said: Mat 5: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. A "wife" can be put away for fornication. It is impossible that fornication can be sex out of wedlock. It is sex to worship a false god. St. Thomas Aquinas Matthew 5:32 A question also here arises as to what is that fornication which the Lord allows as a cause of divorce; whether carnal sin, or, according to the Scripture use of the word, any unlawful passion, as idolatry, avarice, in short all transgression of the Law by forbidden desires. For if the Apostle permits the divorce of a wife if she be unbelieving, (though indeed it is better not to put her away,) and the Lord forbids any divorce but for the cause of fornication, unbelief even must be fornication. Fornication zanah {zaw-naw'} 1a3) to be a cult prostitute The word Sodomite "qadesh" means a male temple prostitute, Sodom was destroyed for the worship of Baal. They had sex with Chemarim priest to give seed to Baal-Molech. The context is Lev 18:21-24, Lev 20:2-5,13, 2 Kings 23:5-7 (where the idolatrous priests are the Chemarim, the sodomits are the temple prostitutes who received the seed to Baal-Molech and the grove is Asherah Baal's wife) Ezek 16:21-25, 1 Cor 6:9-20 and Rom 1:23-28. Before the invention of a homosexual no one say any verses applied to homosexuality, it is a modern day invention. Adam Clarke's (1760-1832) Commentary: Romans, 1 Verse 23. They changed the glory,] The finest representation of their deities was in the human figure; and on such representative figures the sculptors spent all their skill; hence the HERCULES of Farnese, the VENUS of Medicis, and the APOLLO of Belvidere. And when they had formed their gods according to the human shape, they endowed them with human passions; and as they clothed them with attributes of extraordinary strength, beauty, wisdom, &c., not having the true principles of morality, they represented them as slaves to the most disorderly and disgraceful passions; excelling in irregularities the most profligate of men, as possessing unlimited powers of sensual gratification. Verse 26. For this cause God gave them up]. Their system of idolatry necessarily produced all kinds of impurity. How could it be otherwise, when the highest objects of their worship were adulterers, fornicators, and prostitutes of the most infamous kind, such as Jupiter, Apollo, Mars, Venus. Verse 27. Receiving in themselves that recompense,] Both the women and men, by their unnatural prostitutions, enervated their bodies, so that barrenness prevailed, and those disorders which are necessarily attendant on prostitution and sodomitical practices. |
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| <Doctor Theo>
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Ok, now let's see what Paul was talking about in the above. Galatians was written in Ephesus in late 50 AD where he also wrote Corinthians. Corinth was a notorious city of temple prostitution, and the worship of other Gods as Bacchus. Paul lived in Corinth a year and a half (Acts 18:11) and Romans was written in Corinth, because Paul was on the way to Jerusalem and could not go to Rome, where he knew the same temple practices were follwed. Namely the mixing of the sexual worship to the fertility gods as still Baal (Rom 11:4) and Venus. They brough these worships into God's temple itself. Paul was not pleased, especially in the church he founded in Corinth. That is why he said in 1 Cor 6:9-20 that temple prostitution was not OK. That you cannot use your body that is the property of God to worship another false god and polute his temple by using it in adolatry/treason against God. He said it again in Rom 1:23-28. When Bacchus was worshiped, there was a festival held in darkness five times a month, where all emotional and sexual restraints were thrown away, and all laws where not to be followed. There was screaming, raving, murder, false witness, forgery of wills, sex of every sort etc. and men under twenty were initiated into these festivals by forceful sodomy (much like being beaten into a gang today) and to worship the fertility gods. The rites to Bacchus got so bad that laws were passed that public worship of Bacchus was forbidden, except to groups of no more than three women and two men, and then only with official permission. Paul was aware of these rites (and the mixing of sexual rites) and Paul told in 1 Timothy (which is mostly devoted to direction to pastors of a church, and written in Macedonia 65 ad) 1 Timothy 1:8-10, "8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine". Before this Paul also talking about this and the worship of temple prostitution in the church said in 1 Corinthians 6:8-10, "8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God... 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Now do you see how all this fits in if you know the facts? |
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You wrote of same-sex ritual practices in the ancient times as "forceful sodomy". Bacchus worship was lewd, that's for sure, but I don't think that rape was actually part of it. What I'm trying to say here, is that by explaining what Paul really had in mind, you used a methodology that seems almost equally homophobic, at least in your choice of vocabulary. Are you trying to say that pagan homosexuality is wrong and that Paul was basically right (in which case, how does pagan homosexuality in principle differ from Christian?) or that he wasn't talking about homosexuality at all? I didn't quite get that.
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| <Rose>
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Doc, I hope you are planning on sending a great big donation to Elaine at gaychurch seeing that you want to repost the same long things on multiple threads, eating up precious memory space! I read your posts through thoroughly and they are both the same and so full of holes and twisting of Scripture and just outright lies, especially the part about David and Jonathan. David was to be married to Saul's first daughter, but Saul gave her to another man instead. Here is the Scripture you failed to produce once again, showing that Jonathan was not even a part of the story! I am in serious doubt that you are a professor of anything in the known world!!!  I Samuel 18:17-24 17 Saul said to David, My elder daughter Merab I will give you as wife; only serve me courageously and fight the Lord's battles. For Saul thought, Let not my hand, but the Philistines' hand, be upon him. 18 David said to Saul, Who am I, |