This may be a strange question, but how do we know when a person is a prophet? Speaking the Word of God over something? I know they must be 100% correct on any "predictions" they make. I also know that prophets are not appreciated; in fact, they have often been pursued and/or murdered because people don't want to hear what God wants to say. So, bear with me....
Reverend Fred Phelps of "God Hates Gays" fame. He is considered a freak even by conservative circles. How do we know on a BIBLICAL level, besides what we don't like, that he is NOT speaking what God is saying? I am not saying that I support him. But how do we know that he is not biblically authentic as opposed to we don't like what he is saying? I mean, the honest truth, is that I want to be open to prophets EVEN if I don't like what they are saying. I also know that people use God to support really seriously twisted actions. I do NOT want to brush off an authentic man or woman of God just because I don't want to hear what God is speaking....I just want to know when we know it IS God who is doing the speaking.
I also struggle with Christians having diametrically opposing views...I mean, I feel like one HAS to be right and one HAS to be wrong. An example would be like Focus on the Family and their focus on homosexuals...as opposed to loving Christians who support gay people. What I mean, I honestly find that quite a few supporters of gay Christians have nominal, if not a watered-down, social service centered faith....and those who are opposed to gay Christians seem to be more serious about the Lord. When I read literature about reconciling faith and sexuality, it is really important to me that a person has an authentic relationship with Jesus Christ and that their "arguments" are biblically grounded. Any thoughts from others?

I don't know about anyone else, but I would judge a "prophet" by how closely his/her view of God was consistent with what Jesus taught. I see Jesus as emphasizing God's love, and telling us that we are not to judge others. The "Christians" who hate gays are judging and not leaving it up to God. I believe them to be false prophets, relying on their own understanding.
Also, don't be so quick to speak of "watered-down, social service centered faith." I am passionate about God, and working on doing what God would have me do. I believe that I am called by God to do social service in God's name - that was the skill God gave me, and it brings me closer to God.
Ingrid

Ingrid,

I don't think Blyth at all meant you or work that Christians like you do. Correct me if I'm wrong Blyth, but I understood your statement to mean "Candy Christians", Pew warmers and socially drawn to be at church and work in social functions, without Living the "Meat" of the Word!!! Walking in the Church with 'NO POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT"!!! Is that what you meant Blyth???

And as far as Fred Phelps, Blyth, do you imagine Jesus acting like that??? What did He tell His disciples when they wanted to call fire from the sky to destroy a city that refused to receive Jesus??? Jesus said, "You do not know what Spirit you are of!" "The Son of man didn't come to destroy mens lives, but to SAVE them!"


ROSE

I'm totally with you Blyth. For me the Bible IS the truth so I don't do well with 'feel good' churches. I want to hear the Word. However the Lord did open up to me a few years back that if one had to choose between a church that was based 100% on the Word but didn't show the loving character of Christ vs. the church that was big on the loving character of Christ but was weak on the Word. I should choose the character of Christ (i.e. love) every time.

I believe the final move of God will embody both of these characteristics. The Word and the Spirit (spirit here meaning the SPIRIT, character of Christ). So you could say the written and the Living Word of God. I believe many churches are starting to look beyond the hard nosed 'Word' agenda/faith and are saying 'Where is the beef?' - i.e. How come we're not walking the talk?

On the flip side the 'feel good' churches can get extremely excited when you open the word up to them and they can see that God's Word IS loving. Tom Hirsch who is the founder of the Alliance (a group of 50+ gay affirming churches that minister primarily in the gay community) told me an interesting thing last year. He said that he was seeing more and more 'fundamental' gay Christian believers (Alliance churches tend to be very Bible focused and Charismatic in nature) flowing back bit by bit to the church of their birth (i.e. whatever church they grew up in). He saw this as a good thing and ultimately where God may be moving. That being that we are 'cross pollinating' each other and the 'on fire' gay Christian believers are being sown back into the more liberal 'feel good' churches. I know that many times I feel that way about this ministry. I would say that roughly 2/3 (and that is a REAL rough estimate!) of the churches in the welcoming list tend to be big on the works/social action/justice aspect of their faith and not quite so big on the Word of God. Many times I sense the Holy Spirit 'sowing back' to their spirit and souls the Word of God through sites like this and through folks like 'us'.

As for Phelps I can't say much except to say that a tree is known by it's fruit. I don't see much of the Galatians fruit of Christ's spirit in the man (i.e. love, kindness, mercy, self control etc..). I see a harsh, judgmental, prideful spirit. But it's not for me to weigh the man's soul - the Lord will do that in due time.

I'm sure I didn't answer your question. Just passing along thoughts/ideas that come bubbling to the surface when you raised that question. I know there is quite a lengthy list of things Scripture has told us on how to judge prophecy. I've never heard anyone describe Phelps as walking in the prophetic ministry though. I think his stance is based upon his interpretation of scripture. Why he is so anti-gay vs. anti-divorce or anti-wife beating or anti-anything I'm not sure. For some reason some folks just see us as the devil incarnate. Why is beyond me. I'm sure satan has a good deal to do with it though. The more the church comes together as one body the closer Christ is to coming back for His bride. Prejudice is one of the "spots and wrinkles" that must be removed from the Bride before she is ready for her wedding. I'm sure satan will do everything in his power to prevent that from happening and will attempt to keep the church attacking Jesus' own people if He can.

One last thought on the prophetic. I've been struck by the number of folks who do walk in the five fold ministry of the prophetic - in both the gay and straight community. Having more and more prophetic utterances concerning the emergence of our community and the importance of our community in the Lord's eyes and plans. That's one of the reasons I started the "Prophetic" section to "The Word" on the web site. Of course I can only list prophetic words from folks who have given me permission to quote them. So that leaves all of the anti-gay prophets out - even though many of them have had powerful prophecies concerning our community. If the prophets are to be believed and are accurately relaying God's word to us. Then Big, BIG(!) things are starting to happen within the Gay Community right now. And God will use us in a POWERFUL way and that we serve a very IMPORTANT purpose in ushering in the next major move of God.... That and that Christ is preparing the Bride NOW for His return. If all this is true - then there is a cosmic significance over the fight for the gay community right now and satan will do everything in his power to NOT allow the gay community to be saved.

Oh yes - the other thing the prophets are saying is that the greatest menance/danger/hinderance to what God is trying to do right now is .... you guessed it... the church itself. I could write article after article on this subject alone - and about the prophecies given. VERY INTERESTING STUFF.

-Correct me if I'm wrong Blyth, but I understood your statement to mean "Candy Christians", Pew warmers and socially drawn to be at church and work in social functions, without Living the "Meat" of the Word!!! Walking in the Church with 'NO POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT"!!! Is that what you meant Blyth???-

EXACTLY! There are plenty of people in the social services field who have awesome, authentic walks with the Lord- in fact, I find that Christians are often drawn into these areas because it provides a constant way to give to others.
You are right about spirit-filled people being sown in among the people at more liberal churches- and that people are listening. I belong to one, and even though sometimes I feel like...a little hungry spiritually, I also feel that is where God has placed me. The only problem is my own...I have been convicted of the fact that within that community, I have had a "more spiritual than thou" attitude...a spirit of spiritual pride. God has had to remind me that I am NOT better than anyone else there.

Blyth, I so agree with what you said about God reminding us that we are not better than others. Our sermon this Sunday was about that. We who are so inclusive and non-judgemental cannot consider ourselves better than the anti-gay Christians. God sent Christ to reconcile the world to God and to each other. We must acknowledge our brotherhood with the anti-gay's and seek to educate them through our love. I think this is especially important for gay/lesbian people. To the extent we can be "out" as gay and Christian, and be loving and Christ-centered, we can help them to learn, tho slowly, what we are really like.
Ingrid

In the churches I was in, there was kind of an attitude like, "WE'RE not like those liberal, mainstream churches who are sold out to the world...." When I joined one of those "liberal, mainstream" churches, it was hard for me to see that there was anyone else there that cared about God....including the ministers...and I felt like I was doing God and them a favor by being there....ha ha ha...guess they were suppossed to be dazzled that there was a super-spiritual person in their midst. Being gay, of course, really helped me to descend back to my rightful place. I honestly believe that if I was not gay, I would have such a level of spiritual pride that I would lose sight of God. I really had a puffed attitude. Honestly, I still struggle with it.

Yep - I think I deal with that too. If I'm in a church that doesn't seem to care about the Bible then my spiritual pride starts rearing its head.

Sometimes I don't think it's pride at all, but like Paul, a real desire to see people grow up in the Lord and walk in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit and a real separating from the world.

I think it really grieves the Holy Spirit when we Treat the Lord and His Word like it's nothing. Like we don't have time for it. It is the weapon of our warfare that we have been equipped with by God Himself. It has the Power to Wash and Transform lives. There is no pride in knowing this. Just a pride in Jesus and the Work He has completed for us.

Yes I agree Rose about the importance of the written Word and it's ability to transform lives. But I am like Blyth in the respect that sometimes I can think that my knowledge is sometimes 'superior' to someone elses or that I have some how given up more to be a Christian (gone through more etc..). But that's just bogus. My knowledge may be different than others but that doesn't make it over all 'superior'. And who am I to think that I've gone through more than some one else? Who knows what trial they have gone through in their life. I thank God that I haven't had to go through more trials! I'm just saying that I can relate to what Blyth is saying and I have to keep a close check on my spirit/head as well in this matter because sometimes I DO think I know more than others. It's one thing to be impassioned (sp?) about your beliefs (just ask Groucho, sometimes if you get me talking you can't get me to shut up!) - but it's another to think that I know more than someone else or that I'm a 'superior' Christian in some way. Because I know a whole BUNCH of ways that I'm not a very good Christian (e.g. stubborn, pride, rudeness, selfishness etc..).

Personally, I've been in a lot of Churches that are very wish washy. They talk about creation and things that are insignifigant to living a Godly life. Many people believe if they just go to church or just pray they are saved but their lives speak otherwise. Some think they don't need to go to church and or have their own belief sytem though they seldom ever read Gods word nor do their lives reflect his life in them (God tells us not to give up meeting together.) There are a lot of Churches out there but not are all true churches. I believe as I've heard and experienced that I need to be in a Church where I can grow and learn... where I can truely worship. A church I can be involved in furthering the work of Gods Kingdom. (My thoughts)

All good thoughts Bren!

His Grace And Peace,
ROSE

Overall, I don't think there is a THING wrong with encouraging other people in the church to a greater commitment with the Lord..not a thing. I think many people's true reason for going to church is to find that deep and close relationship with Jesus Christ. What I speak of, is an inner pride....I don't think that is something the Holy Spirit gives....I just don't. Encouragement, yes, better than thou, no. I mean, compared to Jesus...what AM I?
I remember coming to the ChristianLesbians board a couple years ago, and actually being ATTACKED for expressing Christian beliefs. I could never figure this out. Being attacked for speaking about the Lord on a Christian site. It was mind-boggling. Rose can attest to this, I believe. I think I have a problem when things boil down to a "do whatever you want, believe as you want, and tell others to do the same..." attitude. I really believe we are to encourage each other to a greater relationship with Christ. I think there comes a time to defend faith in Jesus Christ. Still, I don't believe I was any better than those ladies. In fact, some of what I considered the hardest things were like sandpaper that helped me spiritually. I think all things work together for good for those in Christ Jesus. I am thankful that there is a real focus on Christ here now, not just things.

quote:

Originally posted by Blyth:
Overall, I don't think there is a THING wrong with encouraging other people in the church to a greater commitment with the Lord..not a thing. I think many people's true reason for going to church is to find that deep and close relationship with Jesus Christ. What I speak of, is an inner pride....I don't think that is something the Holy Spirit gives....I just don't. Encouragement, yes, better than thou, no. I mean, compared to Jesus...what AM I?

I remember coming to the ChristianLesbians board a couple years ago, and actually being ATTACKED for expressing Christian beliefs. I could never figure this out. Being attacked for speaking about the Lord on a Christian site. It was mind-boggling. Rose can attest to this, I believe. I think I have a problem when things boil down to a "do whatever you want, believe as you want, and tell others to do the same..." attitude. I really believe we are to encourage each other to a greater relationship with Christ. I think there comes a time to defend faith in Jesus Christ. Still, I don't believe I was any better than those ladies. In fact, some of what I considered the hardest things were like sandpaper that helped me spiritually. I think all things work together for good for those in Christ Jesus. I am thankful that there is a real focus on Christ here now, not just things.

Blyth,

Thankyou for expressing such thoughtful and Spirit Filled Words. I experienced just what you are saying also from the other side! I grew up Catholic and although I read the Bible often from a child, yet the veil over my eyes was not removed till I turned 18. My cousin Rosalyn was always talking to me about the Lord and I thought she was nuts.

I, like Paul who believed only in the strictest Judaism, believed only Catholicism was the right way and didn't understand it wasn't enough to go to church every Sunday and perform my "DUTY". It had nothing to do with really wanting to be there, actually my mind was everywhere else at mass, including watching the clock and just waiting for the moment I could get up and run out the door and be on my way into "MY" day.

At 18 when the Lord finally broke thru with the Gospel of Jesus Christ I realized that all I had been doing was warming a church pew and grudgingly at that. I had always thought I was a very good person until the Light of His Word exposed my heart totally. I couldn't believe I wasn't Saved because I went to church weekly and was "born a Catholic" (I thought) I always assumed because I was Catholic that was the magic ticket to heaven. My, what a rude awakening to find out I was helpless to do anything about my sins and that no matter how many rosaries I prayed, nothing washed away the sin in my life.

My cousin laughed when I finally received Jesus as Saviour and began trusting that God both brought me to Himself, cleaned me up and will complete the Salvation process all without my help. Trusting the Lord when I was younger never occurred to me even though I poured over the Scriptures for years. I believed I had to do it all to be worthy of Heaven. So I see how easy it can be to go to church, do many works and still not be Born again (made Alive by His Spirit). I was missing the whole point for years and yet if someone spoke other than what I knew I would defend being Catholic, Which in my mind meant I was automatically Saved. If anyone spoke anything different I would get pretty mad. So I can see how some people can attack you about the Gospel until their veil is removed off their eyes. I was so blind, but I thought I was so right just the same and I hammered my cousin everytime she talked about Jesus, just the way you were attacked here Blyth. We need to Pray for each other daily and constantly teach and affirm His Word and also His Holiness. I think we forget sometimes we are called to be Holy and to walk that way as well as Believe on Jesus and Trust Him alone for our Salvation. We will know each other by our Fruits. Bad Fruit, Bad Roots!!! Good Fruit, Good Roots.

I think a lot of Christians are waking up to the days we are really walking in and that the time is well past to be playing church. The Lord has been calling all of us out of the world for sometime now and saying, "Touch not the unclean thing". More than ever we need to go into that deeper place in the Lord and be taught of Him. We need to be looking for Him daily. His return is so much sooner than when we first believed and when He comes what is it that He will find each of us doing? All the parables of His servants He left in charge of His estate tell us He is going to be asking an account of our time. All our time, not just Sunday mornings. I want to be able to hear Him say, "Well done thou Good and Faithful Servant." I don't want to be ashamed before Him when He arrives. So Blyth, what sometimes might appear as a Spiritual pride isn't always, it's just a "Knowing" who we are in Him.


HIS GRACE AND MORE PEACE THAN EVER,
ROSE