Elaine,

Rose and I got to talking this morning about Baptism. We have totally different views and I'm sure that many of our sisters have different views as well.

For example, she questions my infant baptism both in style (sprinkling) and function (that as an infant that I wasn't a "willing" participant). My belief is that once in conventant with God that the covenant will not be broken by God. Even though I may forsake Him, He will never break His promise to me.

We also had a discussion about how Jesus was baptised. She thinks that Jesus was immersed and I think that John used a shell to pour the water on Jesus.

Anyway... we thought that the general subject of Baptism would make a good topic, but I didn't know which tread would be most appropriate.

Grace and Peace,

Tiggertoo

I think it's a good question although I did move your question to a new forum dedicated to such things. Coming from a Catholic home of course I was raised to believe in infant baptism. I have since 'changed my mind' a bit in my beliefs (again note that these are just my opinion!).

I now view infant baptism as the parents dedicating themselves and their extended family to raising the child in a Christian home. The child is too young to make the decision themself to be a follower of Christ at that point. I personally think that it’s important for each person when they are old enough to understand what such a decision really means. To choose God and Christ on their own. My parents can raise me in a Christian home but only I can choose to follow Christ or not.

Saying all that however does not take away the experience you had as a child. I dare say Tigger that you have obviously have decided to follow Christ on your own! Maybe someday, if your heart leads you to it. You and Rose can have a private baptismal ceremony of rededicating both of your lives to Christ yet again.

1 Cor 13:13 (NLT)
"and the greatest of these is love."

Tigger, it is a great topic. The one central idea I get from Baptism is not so much the technicalities but the idea of being identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection and the concept of being immersed, soaking wet with His Holy Spirit right to the core of us.

Deb

quote:

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Originally posted by Tiggertoo:
Elaine,

Rose and I got to talking this morning about Baptism. We have totally different views and I'm sure that many of our sisters have different views as well.

For example, she questions my infant baptism both in style (sprinkling) and function (that as an infant that I wasn't a "willing" participant). My belief is that once in conventant with God that the covenant will not be broken by God. Even though I may forsake Him, He will never break His promise to me.

We also had a discussion about how Jesus was baptised. She thinks that Jesus was immersed and I think that John used a shell to pour the water on Jesus.

Anyway... we thought that the general subject of Baptism would make a good topic, but I didn't know which tread would be most appropriate.

Grace and Peace,

Tiggertoo

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John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Tigger,

A very good and deeply theological question...one that has split churches historically for decades and a discussion that continues on.

Where I stand theologically is that baptism is a sacrament (like that of communion), and a sacrament has been described as "a visible sign of God's invisible grace." As such, the focus is not solely on the action of the person, whether an infant or adult, but primarily on God's action. That's an important aspect to keep in mind, because while we might have entered the waters of baptism without choice as infants, or have "wandered" after our baptism as adults, the presence and work of God's grace in that instant remains in effect. In other words, God doesn't need to repeat what God has already done.

In the Disciples of Christ, we practice "believer's baptism" by full immersion, however we recognize other forms of baptism (infant, by sprinkling...) as valid for those coming into the Disciples from another faith tradition.

My thoughts headed your way...

Peace in Christ,
Anita
christianlesbians.com

Everyone is soooo interesting and pleasant in their discussion. I'm glad your having these discussions at home. It is nice to see Christians being Christian. I will go with Anita on this one. You have put the concept of sacrament very well. Baptism - Great topic. I’ll give my personal 2 cents worth (now that I read over a draft it is about $2.00 worth - I won't write it all now) and others can choose to agree or disagree, but in the process, maybe we can all celebrate our own baptisms and the meaning that they hold for us. (Here I’ve been part of the gang for two days and I’m already off and running; jumping in on a much debated topic – who says that I don’t live dangerously?). As we know the two sides of the debate are usually “infant baptism” and “believer’s baptism.” I’m going to write about infant baptism and I hope someone will respond with their view on “believer’s baptism.”

One question I would ask people who are trying to decide this issue is, “Who is really doing the baptizing?” I believe it is God who is claiming us into Her family. God is putting the family seal of love, acceptance and approval on us. God is claiming us as Her children and members of Her family. If you think about it we are all “babes in Christ” when we are baptized. Whether we are 6 months old, 6 years old, 16 or 60 we are all just starting to learn what it means to be a Christian and are just starting the process of being born again and letting God really move in us. A new Christian at 60 has as much to learn about being in a personal relationship with God as a 6 year old. I'm going to stop at this point and after a few more posts may put a few more paragraphs together on this.
Take care all, Journey

Everyone,
thanks for your views. Journey and Anita, you describe what I believe very well. I think I was 11 when my pastor gathered all the 11-13 yr olds and started talking to us and getting us to think about the baptisim sacrament and what it means to acknowledge the covenant.

I have recommitted myself several times via a heartfelt expression of faith as witness to the baptisim of friends, family and our children But I have never felt the need to repeat the sacrament. Doing so, to me, would be like saying that it didn't take the first time.

Rose and I got deeply into debate about how one should recieve the water. Rose is for a complete dunking and I think all 3 methods are fine, but personally would never hold still to have my head shoved under.

And she's praying for me, and I'm praying for her. While we may never see eye-to-eye on the subject, we are able to respect each other's views and love each other all the more.

I'll always remember my old pastor's words on the subject. he said " I've sprinkled most, dunked a few, but I've yet to pour one". I think he really would have loved to pour one.

Grace and Peace from your psalm-singing Methodist friend,

Tiggertoo

I also view baptism as a sacrament -- I also grew up methodist, Tigger, and was christened as an infant.

Personally, I was baptized again later in life simply because I felt like I was being led to do so. It was a time where I had made some pretty serious changes in regards to my relationship with God and I viewed it as a public symbol of my renewed relationship with God.

Now...do I believe that everybody that is christened as an infant should be re-baptized as an adult? Not really...I think that God looks at the heart and not at the actions. I know several people who have told me they got baptized because everybody else was, or their parents made them or something similar. I believe that if God wants someone to go through baptism again, He will deal directly with that person. I do believe that baptism is a serious thing and is not something to do non-chalantly. But the key thing is (at least for me) know the reason(s) baptism is a part of our collective faith and follow the Spirit's prompting.

I don't think that Peter is going to stop you at the "Pearly Gates" and tell you that you can't enter into Heaven because you were only christened, or only sprinkled, etc...to me, heaven is about the relationship you have with God.

So is that clear as mud?

Good topic Tigger!

Cristi

Whether you get the answer you prayed for, or the answer you dread, God's grace is the same.

-- Unknown

I've been baptized twice but only because I changed denominations at one point (actually several times before I settled in) and the denomination I was going to didn't accept my infant baptism. (actually this is a very funny story) However, it seems that many churches don't perform baptism more than once because if God did it, it is always and forever done. Remember, God doesn’t need to do anything twice – it is done right the first time. Now, I can stray and need reassurance. I can need re-dedication. I can need to “remember my baptism” again and again. Lots of churches have services where this is done (many on an annual basis often at New Year’s) and have times when people who want a special time of spiritual recommitment can come and remember their baptisms, but it is done in some symbolic way.

Communion is a powerful sacrament. In fact every time we take Communion we should be remembering our baptisms and our relationship with Christ. Baptism is done once, Communion is done many times, but the two work together as a set. Communion can become that time of special re-dedication (this can be a really neat thing to do with your partner to be at the Lord’s Table together holding hands as you share communion. I love the traditions that let you kneel together at the alter – pretty powerful stuff to be kneeling with the one you love in the presence of God. Talk that one over and maybe some folks can share how they have experienced communion together.)

Well, I'm waiting to hear from some more of you folks. Where are you immersion people? I appreciate Rose and Tiggertoo bringing up the subject as well as Sweet Spirit and Anita 's ideas.

Dears,

I was baptized as an adult. When I was burn, my parents were in a denomination that did not baptize infants. Actually, my Christian upbringing was rather rocky, with many changes of denomination based on what was in style at the time. I was far from God for years. When I got back to God, it was wonderful to be able to be baptized. I could really feel the spirit moving in me. The water was sprinkled, but I do not think the difference between sprinkling and immersion is important. I don't even think the water is important. All that is needed is God and the intention of the person, or the parents, that God be the center. (I told you I was a liberal.)

As to communion, I think it is a blessing to be able to take it with the one you love. In MCC, communion is given to individuals, couples, or groups as the participants prefer. Hugs and kisses are common. Wonderful. This is one thing I miss now that I am at UCC.

ingrid

Okay - I know I'm supposed to be a liberal, but on this issue, I'm pretty conservative. In other words, Rose and I actually agree on something!!

I was baptized as an infant (sprinkling) but was rebaptized as an adult (dunking - in a river no less). To me, being fully immersed was a sign of my submission to and trust of God rather than in and of my own imperfect human-ness.

So, Rose - chalk it up on the calendar - we are together on this one.

Marcia

The dark ages were called dark, not because there was no light but because people refused to see.

Marcia,
LOL. ROFL. LMAOTOO!!!! Let's see, uh January 22nd. 2004.
YUP,
ROSE

Rose S.

Psalm 119
1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

Sisters!

Can the end be near? Marcia and Rose Agreed!!!! lol, lol, lol

love ya all,

G&P

Tiggertoo

Lol! Heaven's goin' to be an interesting place for sure.. for sure..

1 Cor 13:13 (NLT)
"and the greatest of these is love."

Tig -

Don't know if the end is near or not, but if there's anyone you know of who doesn't believe in miracles, just direct them to this conversation so they can see that miracles still happen.

Rose -

Glad to hear that my agreeing with you made you laugh - just goes to show that no matter how far apart we Christians can be in our belief structures, there will always be common ground between us. Besides, I can't always take Tig's side - it just wouldn't be fair.

Marcia

The dark ages were called dark, not because there was no light but because people refused to see.

Greetings,

As a recently born infant I was Christianized by the priest pouring water over my head, while my godmother or maybe mother held my head over the baptism "bowl". Don't know any other name for it.

Fifteen years ago I made a concious decision to accept Christ as my only and personal Savior as I repented to God and confessed that I was a sinner.

About nearly 2 years later I was baptist in the Evangelical church I was attending.
It was in a basin filled with pipeline distillated 'drinking' water from the sea.
After giving my testimony, I was dunked in the water.
It is for me to show God and others that I decided to have Jesus in my life and walk with Him.
It is as Marcia said to qoute her:
" To me, being fully immersed was a sign of my submission to and trust of God rather than in and of my own imperfect human-ness."

Well as being surrounded by the sea sometimes the baptism takes place in the sea.
Waw that is a sight.
Specially when there are a crowd just there spending fun swim time at/ in the sea.
That is like a double public testimony in my opinion.

Waw, if I can repeat the baptism, but it isn't a game, I would have me baptized in the sea as that is very exciting and special as I love water, especially the sea. And I would had been baptised in the river to. Maybe I can do that symbolic as a way to whenever I want to remember, that I had accept to follow Jesus.

God blesses to you all/ to us ... Dot.

Doth,
Loved reading your story. Thanks for sharing itIt has added to the discussion. It sounds like you had a very memorable and powerful experience. There is something special about the sea and rivers.
Peace, Journey

I was baptized twice as an adult.

The first time was because my husband (EX-now), literally forced and shamed me into it. The pastor tried to make him understand it's a personal thing...but no go.

The second time was a few years later, after doing much research and praying on why it was important. I had a new pastor, (actually old one for me, I'd known him 23 years). He agreed to re-baptize me, knowing the entire situation. He felt that God would be OK with it, because this time I was informed and willing.

I've always heard of infant baptism as being more of a "Christening".....I think if a person who was baptized as a baby chooses to be baptized as an adult then it's their right to choose. It's also an indication that they are making the choice and doing so willingly and with full knowledge. If they choose not to, I don't think God will deny entrance. Not every Christian has been baptized, I'm sure.

My websites:
Lesbians, Coping with Incest
Christians and GLBT

"Each contact with a human being is so rare, so precious, one should preserve it." --Anais Nin

If Christ waited to be baptized until he was an adult, isn't that the example he set for the rest of us to follow..? That's always been my belief.

Now here's another question.. what if you accept Christ but never get baptized? Will that keep you from going to Heaven? 'Cause having been brought up believing that you don't get baptized until you're ready to commit your life to Christ, I've never been baptized as the gay thing got in the way (if that makes sense to anyone). I don't belong to a church now and just haven't gotten around to doing it. I know, I know.. it's a lame excuse.
So Rose & Tigger.. how about a three-some when you get baptized???

I would love to, ask Tigger for me PLEASE!!!! LOL.
ROSE

Rose S.

Psalm 119
1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

Pryo, to keep my response to your question short I'll turn to some familiar words...
"....and whosover believes in him will not perish but have life everlasting."

There don't appear to be any qualifiers or requirements beyond that from what I've read



Pryo

quote:

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Now here's another question.. what if you accept Christ but never get baptized? Will that keep you from going to Heaven? 'Cause having been brought up believing that you don't get baptized until you're ready to commit your life to Christ, I've never been baptized as the gay thing got in the way (if that makes sense to anyone). I don't belong to a church now and just haven't gotten around to doing it. I know, I know.. it's a lame excuse.

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Peace in Christ,
Anita
christianlesbians.com