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** Note: this is not a 'finished' document but I decided to quickly post some notes on this subject sense I promised them to a few folks a few millinium ago! I will elaborate more on Romans later. It is one of my favorite passages and the passage that the HOly Spirit used to talk me out of getting married (more on that later). **
What is “Natural”? (New Testament) - Romans 1:21-31 The final issue has to do with what is "natural". In these versus we see that there is a group of people who turn away from God. From this point on their lives begin to spiral downward and they commit all sorts of sins. One of which is turning from what is “natural” for them to that which is “unnatural”. The issue here revolves around the word “natural” which is derived from two Greek words phusikos (Strong's #5446) and phusis (Strong's #5449). These words literally mean that which is a persons "natural disposition" and something that comes "instinctively" to them. In other words, it is who you are naturally; without reprogramming, counseling, or any other form of behavioral modification that attempts to change your behavior to that which society has deemed acceptable. You ask any gay person what their natural sexual orientation is and they won’t even hesitate to tell you that being gay is. The problem is of course when you discuss the issue with a heterosexual person. Unfortunately many times people who belong to the majority tend to think of themselves as the ‘norm’ and therefore their sexaul orientation is what is "natural". Everyone else falls into another category altogether and is considered that which is "unnatural" (this issue goes beyond just sexual orientation). Some have jokingly referred to this as the “ick” factor.  This point was illustrated best to me by a story my Grandmother used to tell me. In her day all the children were expected to be right handed. Anything else was considered slightly abnormal and therefore undesirable. Because of this if children showed a natural propensity to use their left hand they were repeatedly encouraged and then required to use their right hand. It wasn’t until years later when they realized that roughly ten percent of all children were naturally left handed that there were calls for this practice to stop. In spite of this, some time passed before the more forward thinking schools allowed left handed children to be who they were naturally without attempting to change their writing habits. Now day’s left-handed children are seen as just another everyday variation. Our sexual orientation is no different. The vast majority of our population is predominately heterosexual in nature (approx. 90-95%) with the remaining minority being homosexual (approx. 5-10%). Researchers have found that these percentages remain pretty much the same across all racial and cultural lines. Varying only by the amount of tolerance or intolerance a particular society has for such differences. Turned from God Another key point in Paul’s story is that the people turned away from God FIRST and THEN began living a sinful ‘lifestyle’. If homosexuality is a sin. By this description we should see that every homosexual person first turned away from God and THEN became a homosexual. Yet I’ve seen everything but! I’ve met numerous Christians who were gay. Some were saved before they came to grips with their sexuality. Some were saved after they “came out”. There is no common denominator. I can only conclude that ones sexual orientation has nothing to do with ones relationship with God. Another important point to keep in mind is what Jesus taught us concerning those who have ‘fallen away’ from God. That being that those who are separated from God will envariably exhibit the full gambit of bad spiritual “fruit” in keeping with who they serve. Jesus said that “a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:18) Therefore “by their fruits you will know them.” (Matthew 7:20) When I met my first Christian gay woman I knew something was a miss with the Church’s doctrine concerning homosexuals. Here standing before me was a person who professed Jesus Christ as their lord and savior and exhibited in their life the full plethoria of “good fruit” that Paul described in Galatians 5:22-23. How could this be? According to Jesus good fruit could not be produced on such a “bad tree”. If homosexuality was a terrible sin that separated us from God it was physically and spiritually impossible for this woman to be standing before me and yet she was! Only one logical conclusion remained. That being that ones sexual orientation was not, in and of itself, a sin. It was instead just another variation in God’s grand scheme of diversity and as such we should not reject it merely because it was different. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." [This message was edited by Elaine on October 02, 2003 at 10:53 AM.] |
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Elaine, I stumbled across this verse today, when I was looking for something else, and so I was coming here to ask about it...because I don't understand it. Imagine hoiw surprised I was to find that you had posted about it only yesterday!
Here is the verse I read, and don't understand: quote: I know that you just wrote a long explanation of it....but it was long and filled with a lot of other things I didn't understand either. I was wondering if you, or someone, could explain this verse to me in the most simpliest way possible. I sometimes have a hard time understanding things if they are complicated. Thank you and God Bless, shy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ #Free_Women - An online chat room for Christian lesbians: Sharing the love of the Lord through chat and prayer! Friends are quiet angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly. |
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I'll try and keep it short but? ... There are several things of great importance in Romans.
1. Natural - phusis. Means that which is natural to you without any reprogramming etc.. Ask yourself. 'Is being with a woman natural for me? Or is being with a man natural for me?' If you say a man (and I don't mean because you think that's the 'right' thing to do). Then being with men is what's natural and you should stick with heterosexuality. If you answered 'being with a woman' then your gay and you should stick with homosexuality. Why? Because even if you got into a marriage and you were naturaly gay. You would be doing a most unloving thing to both him and yourself - and any kids that got involved later. You would be breaking the 2nd commandment of love. Eventually you would end up blaming God for your hurt and pain and your relationship with Him would suffer. Then your would start breaking the first commandment of love. 2. These people TURNED FROM GOD (broke the first commandment of love) and THEN they TURNED from what was NATURAL (phusis) to them to something that was UNnatural. They were thrill seekers. They wanted whatever brought them the next 'high' (sin of sensuality). They began to seek it in everything they could. Natural or not to them (phusis). Harmful or not to them (or others) - breaking the second commandment of love. They didn't care. They only cared about themselves (sin of selfishness). God finally turned them over to their wicked, self-centered ways. He let them go. And what happened? They went hog wild into everything and anything they could that broke God's commandments. Their fruit was 100% rotten! Are some in the gay community like this? Yes. Are some in the straight community like this? Yes. Are we as gay Christians like this? No - if you had turned from God why on earth would you be so interested in fellowship with other Christians and with God now? Light and darkness have no fellowship! We would run to the dark crevices of the back alleys! NOT to God's House nor to God's people! You are IN GOD'S LOVE and KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS by a) Seeking Him and Loving Him b) Loving others that come phusis (naturally) to you. c) Loving others that may even persecute and ridicule you for your faith (both gay and straight). For LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS. -- that's about as short as I can make it 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
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quote: So Liza if I understand your logic here. Basically society is such an evil place that when it gets bad enough for long enough homosexuality ensues? Well I’m willing to entertain most ideas so I’ll ponder this one for a moment. Some problems with this logic appear rather quickly. First off if this is true - i.e. homosexuality is a result of societies degeneration and rejection of God then ALL of society would be gay – not just a select few. So how do explain why everyone isn't gay? The only thing that makes since and can keep this train of logic going. Is that God somehow chooses a few select folks to dole His punishment out upon thus sparing the rest of society? Say.. perhaps 5-10%? Well the problem with that is that would make God rather unfair no? For He would be arbitrarily ‘picking’ out 5-10% of the population to carry the burden of societies sin. We know this can’t be true because God doesn’t “tempt” anyone with sin (James 1:13). So for God to arbitrarily ‘punish’ 5-10% of the population with homosexuality (if homosexuality was a sin) would make God a VERY unfair God no? Something we know God simply isn’t! (2 Thessalonians 1:6, Revelation 19:2) The other issue with this is that God doesn’t seem to be in the business of handing out punishment upon the innocent sons and daughters because of sins the generation(s) before them (John 9:3). Even with Sodom and Gomorrah God sent His angels into the city to search for the innocent before the cities were destroyed! Another problem we have with this theory is that homosexuality seems to have been with us since the dawn of ‘modern’ recorded history (e.g. Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Ottoman etc..). How do we marry this up with your idea that once A SOCIETY gets wicked enough THEN homosexuality ensues? Does this mean that it isn't just ONE group of people is wicked but that EVERY generation and EVERY society is wicked enough to produce the SAME 5-10%? And where is Jesus' role in all this? Isn't HE supposed to be carrying our sin and punishment? Are we now saying that it's the job of homosexuals to carry this burden? Have ‘we’ now taken His place?! We could go on and on. For instance what do we do with the animal kingdom? Again we see homosexuality occurring pretty much ‘across the board’ in many, many species. Is the animal kingdom corrupt and being punished as well? The final 'little' flaw I see in this theory (especially at this late hour!). Is the that IF homosexuality was a sin then why on earth are 'we' hungering for relationship with God? Sin drives people AWAY from God – NOT toward Him! (John 3:20-21) None of us would be even remotely interested in a board like this! Nor would we see the fruit of God so rich and free in our lives if we were living in such 'dire' sin (Matthew 7:18-20; Galatians 5:22-23)! Liza I’m trying to wrap my brain around your logic here but no matter how I twist and turn it – I simply don’t see it. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your point? 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." [This message was edited by Elaine on November 02, 2003 at 12:19 AM.] |
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| <Liza>
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Elaine,
You're not really misunderstanding my point. Maybe my theory doesn't make sense. It's been in my mind bugging me for a long time though, so I thought I would just spew it forth and see what others made of it. Here are my responses to your points: quote: I don't think it necessarily means that everyone would be gay. That chapter lists a whole range of consequences - greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, gossip and more. I don't read it as saying that each of these is found in every individual concerned, but rather that in humanity as a whole these things can be seen, some present in some people and others in others. quote: Everyone has sin they're more and less inclined to fall into for various reasons. I don't see God randomly choosing whether my weakness will be gluttony, pride, envy or same-sex attraction so I agree with you that God doesn't tempt anyone, arbitrarily punish anyone, nor is he unfair. quote: I disagree with you here. Perhaps he doesn't bring punishment upon us as such, for that reason, but the world is certainly set up in such a way that we often suffer the consequences of others' actions, both good and bad ("I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments" Deut. 5:9,10) quote: No, it means that if this theory is right, homosexuality is a consquence of humanity's rebellion & fall. quote: Of course not. But I think you're talking about two different things. Jesus carries the penalty for my sin but he doesn't take all the natural consequences of it from me. quote: Punished - no, corrupt - yes (Rom. 8:21) although I doubt that that's why we see 'homosexuality' in the animal kingdom. I think that how animals behave is really just irrelevant. quote: Sin drives people away from God but his Spirit draws them to him. Many people, myself included, have had areas of significant sin and bondage that they've continued to live in after coming to Christ. When I was in that situation, I didn't stop wanting to know God, and God didn't stop calling me to put away my sin and allow him to meet my needs. I think that IF this theory is right it's possible that my being gay is a similiar type of thing. Please know I'm not claiming this is the way it is and everyone who says otherwise is wrong. It's just a possibility that's been in my mind for some time - "could it mean this?". I suffer from enduring confusion  Thanks for taking the time to respond. Liza |
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Good for you, Liza for asking! It is important to question ANYTHING that does not make sense to you, especially when it has to do with the Lord. HE is your God and the Right One ALL the time. That is part of the freedom of coming here...you can ask questions like these, even if you do not understand, or agree with the answers.
Let me add my two cents in here...I am aware that it is a well-known theory in Christian circles that when a society is degenerating, homosexuality appears in force. Many of us have heard this....even ascribed to it..that right before the downfall of major empires, homosexuality was there in abundance. I used to ascribe to this in my "ex-gay" days, yet I never asked....where the information came from, or if that information was accurate. Right before the French Revolution,and the downfall of the French King (Louis and Marie Anoinette) I have virtually read nothing about homosexuality in that time being anything more than hidden. I know there was extreme self-indulgence on the part of the royals and everyone attached to them, and an upsurge of "the age of reason" (e.i- athiesm) after their executions, but homosexuality did not have a play in this. This is just an example. Czarist Russia is another example. I have read very little about ANY homosexuality in that society, yet it collapsed and the royalty were slain. So, at least these two societies fell for other reasons, and homosexuality was NOT apparent in the time before their falls..a major factor being oppression of the poor. (I like to study European history if you haven't figured it out yet.......) In the founding of our own country (if you are American)...our illustrious "Founding Fathers" not only may have owned slaves, but some also may have had mistresses, which is adultery. Many people want to look back on the founding of this country as a group of godly men putting together a constitution, but at the time they were seen as rabble against the Crown, and were imperfect men. Our country, even during the early part of the 20th century which appears to have been so "moral" MAY have been more sexually moral- there were definatly less unplanned pregnancies, but they were extraordinarily less moral in their oppression of different races..all you have to do is look at the happy faces in photographs of lynchings to prove this...lynchings of unconvicted, untried black people..murdered...and God hates oppression. Even today, people continue to oppress the alien in the land when God specifically prohibits this, and one of the most vocal groups against foriegners in our land seems to be Christians. "do not mistreat an alien or oppress them, for you were aliens in egypt" exodus 22:21 "The Lord watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow..." Psalm 146:9a But lets get back to the first question...where is the proof that homosexuality abounds before a nation is destroyed? Is it EVERY nation EVERY time? Is this a "theory" that with enough word of mouth and even less factual examples became "fact"? I know that although Christians are warned NOT to spread false witness, they have no problem even printing that gays are child molesters and are trying to recruit children among many, many other things...which is...false witness, and not to many people seem to feel the "conviction of the Holy Spirit" on passing around untruths. I know that homosexuals on occassion HAVE molested children, but the biggest group of child molesters over all is straight men. No, I have no hard facts about that, either except what I have read and heard. The Romans verse is the hardest verse for me- but yet, I see it in context as a gradual falling away from the Lord both collectively and individually. If this is so, why do countries with idolatry of worshipping handmade gods not have a huge population of homosexuals? But I have to agree with you on one point- that whatever sin we might be more inclined to, would be the one we fall to..."strongholds", you called them. But I have to be very honest about something, too...it is by being homosexual that I have been brought CLOSER to God in a closer way...because I could no longer have the spiritual pride and self-righteousness that I possessed as an "ex-gay" and because it has caused me a humility that has driven me to have to seek the Lord for Himself and not build my faith on the beliefs of others...I have had to seek HIS Face...and I must tell you, it is a Glorious Face indeed. My faith is also deeper and stronger, more genuine than it was before I "came out"...it was in being gay that I began to understand His Sacrifice, and His mercy and grace. I don't know if my "arguments" make sense, but I do know that Jesus is the strength of our lives..there are things that we struggle against, but I know that He would be faithful to release us...and how come, if homosexuality is as important to Him as it is to Chrisians, He did not mention it even ONCE in the gospels? Keep seeking Him, my sister...He WILL answer you...you ask great questions! [This message was edited by Blyth on November 02, 2003 at 08:54 PM.] |
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OK, here is a study I came up with from another site:
The idea of trying to blame homosexuals for any child abuse is shear poppycock! As 7/12/94 article in USA Today Child Molesters Rarely Homosexual points out a child is 100 times as likely to be sexually abused by a heterosexual than a gay adult. Its unfair to connect pedophile with gay or lesbians. The view that homosexuals are likely child molesters often underlies custody challenges filed against gay parents and the dismissal of gay Boy Scout and youth group leaders. Dr. Carole Jenny of the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver, studied 269 sexual abused children examined during one year at Denver Children's Hospital. Investigation shows: 80% of girls were molested by a man who was or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the child s mother or another relative. 75% of boys were abused by males in heterosexual relationships with female relatives. Only 1 of 219 girls was molested by a lesbian; 1 out of 50 boys by a gay male. This is a much lower percentage than the likely 6-10% of the population that is homosexual, therefore the incidence of gays molesting is much lower than the rate for heterosexuals. Article from: LibChrist org |
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Well I just logged on and the hour is already late. I do not have the time or energy to do either your or Blyth’s posts justice at this late hour. However I’ll do my best and try to be as brief and ‘to the point’ as possible (something I don’t’ do very well! Lol!).
So Liza I think we could boil this whole thing down to one point (again if I'm interpreting your posts and theory correctly). That being that you believe that your sexual orientation is somehow a 'curse' laid upon you by societies 'fall'. While I view my sexual orientation as merely a naturally occurring event that affects roughly 5-10% of the world’s population. To me my sexual orientation is no more a consequence of ‘societies fall’ as my youngest daughters left-handedness has anything to do with the murder rate in our state capital. There is just nothing that connects the two! Our right-handed daughter is no less ‘approved’ by God than our left handed daughter. Different yes – but BOTH made in His image. None more acceptable in His eye than the other. Each is living out their “natural” (phusis) natures as God intended them to be. Now if my past experience with the WOF board (and others like that) is any indication. We could probably discuss this thing from Genesis to John 3:16 and all the way through to the last verse in Revelations and it wouldn't really matter. Why? Because we simply interpret Scripture differently. Does that make me anymore ‘right’ than you (and visa versa?). No. You are simply serving God as best you can with the knowledge and faith you have and I’m doing likewise. We both love God and have put Him first in our lives. We both love our brothers and sisters in Christ and are attempting to love them as we love and have accepted ourselves. In the end Liza – this IS what is important. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
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quote:Liza - you were so quick to 'beat yourself up' with this verse you missed out on it's promise! That being that God will show His "lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments" Liza - God DOES love you! Rest in God's promises! If you've accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (John 3:16) and are now subsequently doing your best to lovingly and faithfully follow His commandment of Agape love (Matthew 22:37-40 - i.e. "My commandments"). Then you can rest in God's promise that He will show you His great and glorious "lovingkindness" for the rest of your days! You are NOt under a curse (Galatians 3:13)! We are under a blessing (2 Cor 5:21)! God's blessing!1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." [This message was edited by Elaine on November 03, 2003 at 12:07 AM.] |
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Liza as I sat down to work today I couldn't get you out of my mind. Sister my heart goes out to you! Not only do you 'struggle' with the day-to-day struggles we all do - i.e. that being to try and live our lives as lovingly towards God and towards others as we can (this alone is hard enough!). But you take upon yourself the extra mantle of feeling of 'carrying' the 'sins of society' upon yourself as well! (i.e. because you feel homosexuality is somehow a curse given to us due to the fall of society).
How can ANYONE(?) survive with such a heavy burden? Each day is hard enough as it is trying to live as the Lord would have us live. Without feeling responsible for what the whole of society has done/is doing/and will do in the future! You’re placing yourself in an impossible situation and laying upon yourself an impossible burden! Liza - I say this with as much tenderness and love as I can. And I DO respect your opinions and interpretation of Scriptures. But the predicament you place yourself in would drive even the strongest Christian virtually insane with guilt and condemnation over time! You CANNOT carry societies sin on your shoulders Liza! Let Christ do that! He and He alone is capable of this load. Not you! God made you, and I and Blyth and countless others JUST AS WE ARE. It is NOT my duty nor my responsibility (nor yours!) to carry "societies sin" upon our shoulders! I am responsible for my own walk and my own life but I cannot live my brothers and sisters lives for them. Love them? Yes. Bless them as I can? Yes. But to carry their sins for them? No! I cannot nor will I attempt to usurp Christ! He alone is the burden carrier. He alone was/is/and will be destined to carry societies 'sin'. Not you or I nor the entire population group whose sexual orientation just happens to be something other than heterosexual! The burden you carry is too great my friend! Give your burden to Christ and trust that He and He alone can and will carry it for you! Liza - Blyth may have heard such doctrines and may even feel somewhat ‘comfortable’ with them. But such things as this are new to me! My heart weeps for you my sister for the burden your attempting to carry is too great! Who has told you such things that would put you into such bondage? Shame, shame, SHAME(!) on them for making your life so ridden with guilt and handcuffed with such a heavy load to bear! Christ came that we might have LIFE(!) and have that Agape LIFE MORE ABUNDENTLY! HIS message of love and reconciliation brings freedom and grace and love and peace to ones life. Not bondage and strife, guilt and turmoil! My dear, dear sister in Christ. My heart weeps for you and I pray that God’s grace, mercy and wisdom permeate every aspect of your heart, soul, mind and body so that you can find the peace and rest you need and so richly deserve. Christ is the burden carrier Liza – let Him and He alone carry your burdens too. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
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"....I am responsible for my own walk and my own life but I cannot live my brothers and sisters lives for them. Love them? Yes. Bless them as I can? Yes. But to carry their sins for them? No! I cannot nor will I attempt to usurp Christ! He alone is the burden carrier......."
I loved this, Elaine. And you know, this speaks to anyone trying to carry a burden for a friend or relative, as well. Wise words for many different situations. I often say I like to serve the Lord--but primarily "in an advisory capacity." Guess what? NOT MY JOB! He knows what He's doing! Thanks for posting this. |
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| <Liza>
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Blyth, I've heard that theory about homosexuality and the fall of empires too. I don't know enough history to be able to judge whether it's accurate and I know my impression was that most of the people who've said it to me don't either. I hadn't actually connected it with this scripture but it could be why I think like this when I read it.
Elaine, I must say I really don't see myself as carrying others' sin either, but perhaps just wearing some of the consequences of living in a fallen world as we all do. I don't know. The last thing I wanted to do though was upset anyone or increase their burden and I'm so sorry if I did that. Thank you both for your openness. |
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Liza my angst and concern was for you. I have no idea if others think along these lines or not (i.e. that they're gay because of some fallen condition in the world in general). So I don't think you've upset anyone or made anyone else feel like they too are carrying the burdens of the world upon their shoulders. My concern was and is for you because you seemed to feel that way and it broke my heart that you did. I'm relieved that you don't feel your "carrying" other people’s sins. But still a bit confused over the idea that somehow homosexuality is "wearing some of the consequences of living in a fallen world".
I guess my confusion about this comes from the fact that I knew I was 'different' at an early age (12-13?). There was no one defining moment when I suddenly 'stopped' liking boys and started liking girls. I've just always been attracted to girls 'in that way'. So the part that I don't understand with your theory is this. How did a young girl inherit her sexual orientation from a "fallen world"? No matter how I try I just can't connect the dots on that one. 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
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| <Liza>
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quote: I guess it means we inherit it the same way as we all inherited our sin nature... although I think some would say we just inherited the tendency and then other factors brought it to fruition. Is it the same as saying it's natural for me to be selfish, greedy and proud? What's natural for me is usually not good and not God. I don't know. I think I should stop now because I'm starting to sound like one of those people I loathe. I'm sorry. |
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Liza, are you meaning that it might be like someone who's genetically predisposed to alcoholism, then can choose to drink or choose to go to AA meetings? I'm just trying to understand for sure what you mean. Is it like that?
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quote:The problem with this logic Liza is that that these things which your labeling as part of our "inherit sin nature". Selfishness, greed, pride, God-haters, faithless, heartless, ruthless and the rest of the list found in Romans (and Galatians) in one way or another break God’s “royal” commandment of love (Matthew 22:37-40). Whereas being gay – in and of itself – in no way, shape or form breaks the commandment of love. For instance, being gay in and of itself, does not cause me to hate God. Being gay, in and of itself, does not cause me to hate or mistreat my neighbor or even myself. What DOES cause harm me as a gay person is how society and many in the Church treat and view gay people. So while someone may be "predisposed" to various things (e.g. alcoholism, being left-handed etc..). The question one must ask oneself is this ‘thing’ that we’re ‘predisposed’ to in and of itself harmful to me (e.g. alcoholism) or to others? If the answer is no (e.g. ones sexual orientation) then we need to ask ourselves “why on earth am I trying to change who God made me to be simply because society wants me too?” 1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." [This message was edited by Elaine on November 04, 2003 at 08:54 PM.] |
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Doc, more or less.. if you were genetically predisposed to alcoholism and you could say it was natural for you to be an alcoholic... it wouldn't mean it that it was God's perfect design for you to be alcoholic and drink yourself into an early grave.
Elaine, yeah I can't see how being gay harms anyone either... or how it's un-loving. I guess some people would say that acting on it is dishonoring (unloving) to God. But if I knew for certain that that was true I wouldn't be here. I just don't know *sigh* |
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Liza if being gay truly was dishonoring and unloving towards God then there would be definite ramifications and side affects we would see. Sin ALWAYS has side affects and there won't be just one. The "fruit" of ones life gives testamony to which God (or god) they serve. If being gay was a terrible sin then the side affects of that sin would be all over my life - not just in my sexual orientation.
1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
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This is a good discussion but I must check out for the evening. My youngest needs my attention and I need to get the girls to bed.
1 Cor 13:13 (NLT) "and the greatest of these is love." |
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