I have read some of the prophetic articles posted on the site regarding the things that God might do to reform the church. It is very interesting. I think that most present day churches have become so far away from what Christ intended His followers to be, that the only way true change is going to happen is through a complete reformation of the modern day church as we know it. A reformation to return to Christ and give Him the entire authority in the churches.
Lately, I have been feeling that the only way this reformation is going to come is by Christians entirely changing beliefs and traditions that Christ did not create and never intended for His followers to have. We need to go back 2000 years and re-start the Christian movement as Jesus wanted to be. The church needs to get rid of some of its idols.
First change I feel needs to happen (and many may not agree with me), is regarding the Bible. Jesus never came preaching the Bible nor did He ever intend for His followers to live their live by a book and call this book "The Word of God." The Bible in no scripture gives itself the title of "Word of God." It clearly states in John 1 that Jesus is the Word of God period. In other words, whatever Jesus spoke, those are the Words of God. Moreover, in the last chapter of Matthew, Jesus instructed his disciples to go and teach the nations everything that He commanded the disciples, which can be found in the 4 gospels. That was his intention. Jesus never said, go and teach them the entire New Testament or Old Testament. He said, teach them what I taught you. We need to return to Christ's intention and base our lives solely in the 4 gospels. That's it!
I am not saying that the entire Bible may not have certain passages that aid people in certain times, but we need to stop giving the non-Gospel writings an authority that it does not have. Jesus cancelled the Old Testament. The non-Gospel New Testament consists of letters written by the early followers of Christ (Paul, Peter, James, etc), to address certain issues occuring at the time. None of these authors intended for these letters to be scripture or "God's inerrant Word". It was the Catholic church 367 years after Christ that decided to put these letters together and call it "God's Word". The church has ever since ran with this idea and now are still living their lives based on obsolete Old testament rules or Paul's and Peter's opinions. I think the worship of false idols needs to stop and the church needs to return to the authority of Christ's teachings. We need to start seeing the epistles as what they are, letters, not God's inerrant scriptures. Only Christ is God's inerrant word.
As gays and lesbians, I believe we sometimes spend too much time explaining to so-called "Christians" that hate us or persecute us, why the cobbler passages don't condemn homosexuality. I think we need to stop explaining ourselves and our reply needs to be, "You know what, Jesus never even intended for there to be a Bible, but for His followers to teach others whatever He taught as seen in Matthew, and since Jesus never condemned homosexuality, I'm not having this discussion."
Better yet, if you really want to confuze them, ask them where the Bible came from, who wrote it, and what year was it put together. I guarantee you 98% of them won't even know that.
I for me, what Paul or Peter or James said does not concern me when it comes to being gay. I only care about what Jesus said, cause He will be my judge and only He is God, not anyone else nor any other early church father. The church needs to place Christ at it's head again.
I think when the church does this, and only then, will everything be the way Christ intended. If this had been the case from the start, the 2000 pile up and history of persecution, hatred, prejudice and violence of the church would have been avoided.
I am looking forward to the day when I will purchase a Bible that will only contain the 4 gospels within it and say "God's Word" in the front. A day when going to church will not be equated with seeking God. And when those who do seek God, live their lives by Jesus simple commandment of loving our neighbors as ourselves.

I read all of your ideas, but the biggest problem with the theory you are presenting is Jesus always said, "What do the Scriptures say?" The only Scriptures existing at that time were the Old Testament. If we believe that He knew what He was talking about, then we have to conclude He meant for us to use the Old Testament as His Word too.

What did he say to the rich young ruler who wanted to know how to inherit eternal life? Didn't He tell him to keep all the commandments? Pretty perplexing isn't it, if we are supposed to throw out the Old Testament!

Why would He purposely misguide him if He knew we wouldn't need the Torah?

And as far as Paul and James and the others having Scriptural weight of Authority, doesn't Peter speak about those that don't understand Paul's letters or epistles and wrest them to their own destruction as they do all the rest of the Scriptures?

So what are we to do with strict instructions from Peter, Jesus own right hand man as he instructs the early church as to what should be regarded as Scripture, including Paul's letters to the early church?

I guess what we should be well trained in, is being led of the Holy Spirit and trying all spirits to see if they are from God. So many have come to these message boards affirming this or that is true, but the truest test is, does it agree with Scripture or deny them? I think that is the only way to know truth from lies.

Good and interesting reply. I know this subject would be one to spark much conversation among believers. Indeed, Jesus did say at times, "What do the Scriptures say?" But Jesus also said, "You have heard that it was said, (referring to the Old Testament) ..."But I say to you..." So, though Jesus did make references to the Torah, He always emphazised the authority towards Himself. Throughout the Gospels we see that He taught as , "One having authority." Jesus made all things new and He was revolutionary.

The rich young ruler (Matthew 19: 17-19) is an interesting example. It could be seen as if Jesus is guiding the rich young ruler to follow the entire Old Testament. However, the key word in the passage is found in verse 18. I will place the key word in capital letters.

Matthew 19: 17-18
17 But he said to him, "Why are you asking me about what is good? There is one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to him, "WHICH?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother; and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

The key word, "WHICH", takes away the perplexity of the passage. There were about 613+ rules and commandments in the Torah and Old Testament. No wonder the rich young ruler asks Jesus "WHICH" commandments to follow out of all 613. Jesus' answer towards the young man is very specific. He tells the guy, if you want to enter into life: Do not kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, do honor your parents and love your neighbor as yourself. If Jesus intended to glorify the Old Testament, He could have told the young man to follow all 613+ rules of the Torah. But again, Jesus was simple and revolutionary. All through the Gospels we see that He did things with a new twist and always had a simple bottom line: Love your neigbor.

So, at first this passage can seem perplexing or that perphaps Jesus mislead the guy, but when we read carefully and look for key words, it all falls into place.

So, I believe Jesus' intentions was for us to know what He specifically taught about the Torah and not about the entire Torah or Old Testament. And again, what Jesus taught about the Old Testament can be found in the 4 Gospels. Moreover, Jesus final instructions to the disciples found in the last chapter of Matthew do not say to go and teach everything the Old Testament says. It still says, go and teach "What I commanded." Again, this could have been another chance for Jesus to instruct the disciples to teach the nations the entire Torah, but once more we see He intended them to teach what He taught about everything (this includes His' specific instructions about what in particular to follow from Old Testament rules).
Luke 16: 16 The law and the prophets were UNTIL John: since then the kingdom of God is preached as good news, and everyone is crowding to it.

As far as Peter's statement, I guess is a matter of how what he said is interpreted by the individual. Again, I will place the key word in capital letters.

2 Peter 3: 15-16 ....as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you; 16 as also in all his LETTERS, speaking about these things in them; in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures (Old Testament scriptures) to their own destruction.

Peter is explaining that some of Paul's writings are difficult to grasp and many have twisted them as they do with the other scriptures which of course refers to Old Testament scriptures. The only thing referred to as scriptures in the passage is the Old Testament ones that people are twisting; Paul's writings are referred to as "LETTERS" by Peter, not scriptures. If Peter intended to coin Paul's letters as scripture, he could have said in verse 16:
"as also in all his scriptures, speaking about these things in them; in which the unlearned and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures (Old Testament).

But instead, Paul's writings are referred to as LETTERS, not innerant scriptures. Moreover, had the early disciples really intended for their letters to be made into a New Testament and "God's innerant Word", why would they not have done it then? Why not put all the letters together into a book in the 1st century and dictate the early church to follow their letters as innerant scriptures? I believe this was never their intention and that's why it did not happen until 367AD.

I believe sometimes if we are not careful we can read more into a text than what it actually says. An example of this is the Creation story in Genesis and how anti-gay Christians use it to say God created Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve and that man's purpose is to procreate. It's reading more into it than what it actually says.

So, what do I think we are to do with the Old Testament and the apostles' epistles? Should we get rid of them? No! There are things we can learn about in both. But, I believe the life and teachings of Christ should be the authorative innerant Word of God and the guidance for our lives. I believe we should see the Old Testament as a referance of life before Christ and the epistles as letters written by early disciples who were human and not Jesus Himself. Disciples that were trying to lead the church through issues, mostly relevant to that particular time, in the best way they knew how through their own experiences and opinions. Jesus is still the authority and repeatedly He gave everyone the invitation to, "Follow Me." Not follow Paul or Peter or Moses, but Him. That's because after Jesus came (God in the Flesh), it was impossible for anyone else to teach us a better way.

Again, the apostles offered their wisdom and advise to the early disciples in their letters, but we cannot forget that like any other church leader today, the apostles were also human, not perfect and very capable of mistakes. So we have to be very careful not to follow a human being blindly over Christ. Peter tempted Jesus to flee the crucifixion and received Jesus' rebuke of 'get behind me Satan'. Then, Peter denied Jesus 3 times. In Galatians 2: 11-14, we read that Paul rebuked Peter because he was led stray by legalists, even leading astray Barnabas. These are some examples of the apostles' humanity. If Barnabas would have been focused on Jesus, would he have been led astray by Peter? If Peter would have been focused on Jesus, would he have been led astray by those of the circumcision? If you had been there, would you have been led astray also; trusting that Peter was Jesus' right hand man and could be uncapable of making a mistake? Imagine if Paul would have been thinking like that about Peter? He probably would have been led astray too. How could Jesus' right hand man be wrong? Paul might have thought. Then, no one would have confronted Peter regarding the early church treatment of the Gentiles. Is a good thing Paul was focused on Christ and His teachings of love and inclusion for everyone. If you see the apostles' epistles as scripture, then you can learn from Paul. Paul did not follow a human, he was completely focused on Christ. Due to his focus on Christ, he repeatedly fought, sometimes alone, for the inclusion of the Gentiles in the church and that we were saved by grace. It is this focus on Christ that I intend to keep in my life. I will leave you with this words by Paul himself:

1 Corinthians 1: 11-13 11 For it has been made clear to me about you, my brethren, by those of the household of Chloe, that there are factions among you. 12 What I am saying is this, that each of you says, I am Paul's, and I am Apollos': and I am Peter's; and I am Christ's. 13 Christ has been divided! Paul was not crucified for you. Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?

Hello...thanks for the interesting discussion... Here's a few thoughts from me.
Have you heard of the Anabaptists? They are very Christ centered in their interpretation of the scriptures, i have found some Anabaptist theology really helpful. I totally aggree that Jesus' teaching is what we should base our lives on (what a challenge!)I reckon Paul's letters are also very important (and i do know how the New Testament was compiled) and we would loose so much info about the early church and some key teaching on church life and'justification by faith' if we disgarded them, the trouble with the church is that most preachers will interpret scripture in a Pauline way, in other words they will start with Paul's teaching instead of Christ's and so you get some very black and white patriachal teaching going on (because of the context Paul was living in). But i reckon that Paul was pritty Christ centered and i think he would be very happy for us to interpret his words in the light of Christ's words in fact, that is what he would have assumed was happening when the early churches read his letters. I think the early church did a fantastic job in compiling the New Testament, (we must not be so proud as to think we would do a better job than them!) i am very happy for it to be called scripture, and i trust that God is bigger than all our human errors anyway and He will continue to speak through the bible we have today to the church today in relavant ways. Of course the bible will also be abused and used for corruption and power battles, but just because some people will abuse the bible to hurt others doesnt mean we get rid of the bits that they have used to hurt others.
I agree with you totally, Jesus is the word of God and so we can only call scripture the word of God if we interpret it in the light of the life and teachings of Jesus!
Karen x

Hey Karen S,
I have kind of heard of the Anabaptists before, but have never looked too much into them. I will now.
I really like your reply and input on this topic. I think you and I are on the same page, but just explained the issue differently. I do believe also that we can learn from the letters of Paul and that he and the early church was Christ-centered. The issue is, and we both agree, that people unfortunately have sometimes focused more on a Pauline interpretation of the scriptures rather than a Christ one. That's all we need to change, I believe. Not get rid of the non-Gospel Bible, but give back the center of our lives and morals to the Christ.

I think the bottom line is- Are we focused on the Spirit of Christ reflected in the Scriptures? Or is it the letter of the Law that is being preached? Jesus was the fulfillment of the law through His love. The law by itself can never bring us to fruition in our Christianity. Because people abuse the words of Scripture doesn't mean we throw it out, but that we search for His truth that is being missed, the law of love.
Jesus is God, so He is also found in the Old Testament, but in a different "form". The heart of God is still there, but it is more clearly shown to us as humans when God became the Messiah in bodily form. We can understand God better threough Jesus as a human being.

Amen...

The whole of the OT points towards the person of Jesus (even the most laborious bits of Leviticus), the whole of the NT points towards the person of Jesus. Jesus himself points us to the Father, our creator. If Jesus is God revealed then we can be assured as we look at the life and teaching of Jesus that we worship a God of Love and a God of Peace! Nothing shall separate us from the love of God, even when the whole world is seemingly against us!

Amen